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Author Topic: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches  (Read 2718 times)

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Offline Liquidated

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2019, 02:41:21 PM »
Liquidated is just a Sean Miller hater. Pretty sure almost every player listed with 16ppg+ was a PG, SG, or SF on the small side. You can't compare eras, but I am curious how many PF or C ever scored even 10ppg or more for Lute Olson. Sean Miller has been known to present a much more balanced attack on offense and featured numerous big's.

Yes, I hate Sean Miller, every true Wildcat fan should. But underestimating Lute's big men is a classic mistake. The guard play was so stratospherically great, but AZ under Lute had excellent big men too and had you seen it, you would not have even raised the question. It was NEVER an issue of balance, and if it was then balance is meaningless because Lute went to final fours and won a championship with 'unbalanced' teams.

Lute's initial offense at AZ was classic high low post UCLA/Wooden offense that he learned at Long Beach state. 1st scoring option was ALWAYS the low post. That is essentially true of Miller's offense too.

Lute got run off the court by eastern tennessee polytechnic (who ever) and they did not have even have a center or true power forward and Lute changed everything. He opened the game up and started running. He started recruiting athletes instead of BB players. You can read his comments about it in his book. Big men suddenly did not look like Rooks, they looked like Bramlett and could run the floor...

He was also influenced by Kerrs ability to shoot the 3 and began to prioritize that in guards... which, apparently, Miller has totally ignored.     

Interestingly the game is evolving more and more towards the 3 point shot now and Miller continues to hide from it, despite massive amounts of evidence (analytics) that show otherwise. 

(all numbers are season average ppg and * indicate team leader for that year)

Eddie Smith (13.2) and Pete Williams (14.5*) played forward/center on Lutes first team at AZ in 1983-1984. They led the team in scoring. Freshmen Kerr averaged 7.1.
84-85 Smith (16.1*) Williams (12.5)
86-87 Tolbert (13.9)
87-88 Tolbert (14.1), Cook (13.9)
88-89 Cook (17.5)
89-90 Buechler (14.9*), Rooks (12.7), Brian Williams (10.6)
90-91 Brian Williams (14.0), Rooks (11.9)
91-92 Rooks (16.3*)
92-93 Stokes (11.5)
93-94 Owes (12.9), Blair (10.1)
94-95 Owes (15.1), Blair (12.4), Davis (9.9 almost)
95-96 Davis (14.2*)
97-98 Bramlett (10.4) -that is on a team with Dickerson (18.0), Simon (17.4), Terry (10.6) & Bibby (17.2) - All 5 starter 10+
98-99 Bramlett (14.2), Wright (13.9)
99-00 Woods (15.6*), Wright (15.5) - that is on a team with Arenas (15.4), Gardner (12.6) and Richard Jefferson (11.0), only second time ever all five starters averaged 10+.
00-01 Wright (15.6*), Woods (13.2)
01-02 Anderson (12.4), Frye (9.5...almost)
02-03 Frye (12.6), Anderson (10.7)
03-04 Frye (15.9), Iggy (12.9)
04-05 Frye (15.8), Adams (12.7) - Adams played the four most of that season.
05-06 IRad (12.1)
06-07 IRad (15.1), Budinger (15.6)
07-08 Budinger (17.1*), Hill (13.2)
08-09 Budinger (18.0), Hill (18.3*)

MILLERS PLAYERS

09-10 D. Williams (15.7*)
10-11 D. Williams (19.5*)
11-12 Hill (12.9), Perry (12.2)
12-13 Hill (13.4)
14-15 Ashley (12.2)
15-16 Anderson (15.3)
16-17 Ristic (10.9)
17-18 Ristic (12.2), Ayton (20.1*)
18-19 Jeter (10.9)


Millers inside players average lower totals - just like his guards...we score a lot fewer points now as a team and it effects the stats of every player. Again, low scoring BB is fine with me, as long as you win and low scoring teams don't win. Yes, Virginia, was total anomaly this past year, they were a high scoring team that slowed it down...and they had the easiest path to the championship in 20 years or more.

 




Keep in mind that all the years where a big man did not lea us in scoring we had players like Elliott and Mills and Dickerson who were doing so...



 



"How does this guy still have his job?! That makes no sense...the world is getting nuked around him and Sean Miller is still there..."  - Mark Titus

Offline Liquidated

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2019, 02:56:35 PM »
1. I am not Trey Mason and I do not know the Mason family. I did know Harvey Mason very casually in college and hung out with those guys little bit. The issue is Miller;s behavior and poor decision making - yet again.

Pitts ADMITTED to sexual misconduct (January) and Miller refused to boot him from the team for another full month until pressure form alumni and the newspaper printed Mason's letter. If for no other reason, you do not piss off an alumni who has 2 legacy athletes at Arizona. Miller needed to take Mason's side - incredibly piss poor judgement, which we now know is par for the course with Miller. It also split the locker room, Pitts was not popular among his team mates and Trey was.

2. Has it crossed anyones mind that someone might not Miller for performance issues? You do not have to 'hate' someone to want them fired for gross amounts of corruption throughout the program they are responsible for, for giving the university a bad name, for finishing 8th in conference, for having a losing record to Altman, for not advancing to the final four, for abusing players, not developing players, not recruiting well outside of the one and ones (this past year is a perfect example).

There are many, many, rational well founded, easily supported reasons to want Miller gone. My 'hate' is product of Miller's own absurd actions and poor performance.
"How does this guy still have his job?! That makes no sense...the world is getting nuked around him and Sean Miller is still there..."  - Mark Titus

Offline jumpinjohnny

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2019, 03:46:21 PM »
"I am not Trey Mason."

By any chance is your first name Dick? If it's not, it should be.
Read em and weep

Offline ichi

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2019, 04:58:32 PM »
seems like the professional, legal, appropriate course would be to remain as impartial and objective, to treat everyone as fairly as possible, to be discrete about what you say and do, to follow established procedures about how to handle such situations

if any coach showed favoritism for or against a player in order to avoid pissing off well-connected alumni, if any coach violated any of the above proprieties in order to side with a popular player, then I would hope that everyone who cares about the program would denounce that

add ethically challenged to all of the other things I've said about you
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Offline arxpert

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2019, 09:04:52 PM »
A ton of the "bigs" Liquid mentioned are glorified SFs. Especially in the modern era.  Chase Budinger, Hot Sauce, Solomon Hill? are not Bigs LOL. Bigs are Loren Woods.

Analytics say 3 and D. Shoot as many 3s as possible and play D. That only works when you have catch and shoot players. Miller has had success playing a more traditional style with elite level athletes. He has adapted his coaching style way more than you give credit for. In game adjustments are underrated when you have tunnel vision to the negative.

He has been the coach for 10 years right? In 10 years he has had actual PF and Centers (NBA Caliber) average high PPG's. He has made what? 3 Elite 8s, 2 Sweet Sixteens and was never truly blown off the court. Multiple conference titles and tourney wins to boot. I believe some buzzer beaters and games of a life time have been the thorn in Miller's side throughout his tenure more than the couple Wichita St/Buffalo games sprinkled in.

You are not giving Sean Miller a fair shake at all and are extremely biased toward ancient history at this point. Lute may have made some final 4s and won 1 title, but give Miller another 14 years before you judge fairly. The only times Lute ever went far was with NBA talent. Sean Miller only recruits NBA talent and the very best transfers. Up until 2014 there was a lot of hard evidence that Miller has been better than Lute to that point and since then he hasn't really been worse. Last year was an outlier.

Offline KansasCityCats

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2019, 06:10:45 AM »
With the exception of last season's mess, Miller's teams have never shot less than 36% from 3-point land.

Lute's final 5 seasons: 2006-07 (34.1%) / 2005-06 (31.9%) / 2004-05 (40.2%) / 2003-04 (38.6%) / 2002-03 (35.3%)

Don't forget that the line was pushed back.  Miller hasn't lived up to the PGU name...but he always brings in consistent outside shooters, including frontcourt players that can knock it down.

Offline eggdog

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2019, 09:37:03 AM »
Lute is to the U of A what Wooden is to UCLA, a Hall of Famer who put us on the map. If we're going to compare every coach to what Lute did we're not going to always be happy with the results. It's also a different era so comparisons aren't always fair but Sean Miller has done great things here and has a bright, probably Hall of Fame, career ahead of him and real fans realize this. We got lucky we didn't end up with Floyd and turn into other programs who have struggled to replace a legendary coach.
I wish that I could be more like Dickie V, but I'm just not willing to cut off half my dick and tape it to my forehead - ichi

Offline Liquidated

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2019, 08:31:15 PM »
seems like the professional, legal, appropriate course would be to remain as impartial and objective, to treat everyone as fairly as possible, to be discrete about what you say and do, to follow established procedures about how to handle such situations

if any coach showed favoritism for or against a player in order to avoid pissing off well-connected alumni, if any coach violated any of the above proprieties in order to side with a popular player, then I would hope that everyone who cares about the program would denounce that

add ethically challenged to all of the other things I've said about you

Please note that my comments are not about whether Pitts was guilty or not, i am talking about AFTER he was found (and admitted that he was) at fault. It took an entire moth to extricate him from the program AFTER the findings. Feel like we've been over this territory, several times, there is a well researched AZ Daily Star article that lays out the timeline.

Yes, of course, up until the findings the coach should remain entirely objective. And then he should support the University's behavior codes and respond appropriately to the findings. Miller did not do that until Harvey Mason went public.
"How does this guy still have his job?! That makes no sense...the world is getting nuked around him and Sean Miller is still there..."  - Mark Titus

Offline eggdog

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2019, 09:29:39 PM »
Please note that my comments are not about whether Pitts was guilty or not, i am talking about AFTER he was found (and admitted that he was) at fault. It took an entire moth to extricate him from the program AFTER the findings. Feel like we've been over this territory, several times, there is a well researched AZ Daily Star article that lays out the timeline.

Yes, of course, up until the findings the coach should remain entirely objective. And then he should support the University's behavior codes and respond appropriately to the findings. Miller did not do that until Harvey Mason went public.

Here are some statements from that well researched article and in no way does Pitts ever admit to any wrongdoing. If he was guilty of what he was accused of that is certainly horrible but unfortunately it happens at a lot of schools and unless the coach was involved with covering it up I don't see why you keep blaming Miller for something that happened in a player's dorm room.

"Miller may not have known the details of Pitts’ disciplinary situation as it was unfolding. UA Dean of Students Kendal Washington White said her office is solely responsible for handling student misconduct cases — the athletic department would not be privy to detailed information but may get periodic reports on the progress and outcome of a case, she said."

Pitts, who was not criminally charged in the Dec. 6 incident that led to his suspension, said through his attorney Saturday that the outcome was grossly unfair.

“I categorically deny any allegation or suggestion of sexual misconduct. Both of us were under the influence of alcohol, but we were fully aware of what we were doing,” Pitts said in an email statement given to the Star by Tucson attorney Ali Farhang.

Pitts’ statement said he and his family “are currently reviewing our legal options.”
“I will vigorously fight to clear my name and prove my innocence,” he said.

The entire article can be found here: https://tucson.com/news/local/education/college/former-arizona-wildcat-pitts-was-suspended-after-ua-finding-of/article_4fd36b14-3fed-56f7-860b-e3f3f599b30b.html
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Offline Liquidated

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2019, 09:35:59 PM »
Dude, seriously, you are totally delusional about Miller. He is nowhere near the same level as Lute at anything excpet recruiting rankings which is then an indictment of his coaching because he has recruited significantly better (allegedly) and done significantly worse.

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A ton of the "bigs" Liquid mentioned are glorified SFs. Especially in the modern era.  Chase Budinger, Hot Sauce, Solomon Hill? are not Bigs LOL. Bigs are Loren Woods.
YOU WROTE:
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...but I am curious how many PF or C ever scored even 10ppg or more for Lute Olson.
Budunger, Hill and Adams all started at power forward for AZ in the years I noted them. I was applying your metric ('PF or C'). The very nature of college ball - there just are not very many true 4's out there. Most of the guys who play power forward in the NBA were centers most of their lives. A lot of college 4's are glorified small forwards...thats kind of the way it works. But you asked fora list, but position of who averaged more than 10pts per game...i noted every starting PF or C that did under Olson.

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Analytics say 3 and D. Shoot as many 3s as possible and play D. That only works when you have catch and shoot players.

OK...doing good so far with this line of reasoning....

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Miller has had success playing a more traditional style with elite level athletes. He has adapted his coaching style way more than you give credit for.

but then you go off the rails. 1. He has NOT had success. ZERO Final Fours. In ten years. Even the most ardent Miller supporters don't think have has adapted AT ALL. PLEASE...cite some examples of how he has adapted his coaching style?  You mention yourself - "with elite level athletes". Why would he not adapt to their abilities? If they can run, and are great in the open court, why not run more?

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In game adjustments are underrated when you have tunnel vision to the negative.
I played basketball and have watched basketball for 35 years...noting that Miller is literally doing everything wrong is not a tunnel vision to the negative. Analytics is the future of college hoops, pack line is the past, adjusting to individual athletes is the future (although Lute knew that 30 years ago) and forcing players to play roles while disregarding their abilities is the past. Miller is a throw back and not a good one.

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He has been the coach for 10 years right? In 10 years he has had actual PF and Centers (NBA Caliber) average high PPG's.

No. He specifically hasn't. That's the point. We play avow scoring, slow down game. Players at every position in his system are going to have lower scoring averages. Look at the lute players and Miller players... any position...season averages. It is a different style, approach and ideology. Different is fine...until you loose to Buffalo...with NBA lottery picks. And Wichita. And Xavier...in which case 'different' starts to become 'inept'. 

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He has made what? 3 Elite 8s, 2 Sweet Sixteens and was never truly blown off the court. Multiple conference titles and tourney wins to boot. I believe some buzzer beaters and games of a life time have been the thorn in Miller's side throughout his tenure more than the couple Wichita St/Buffalo games sprinkled in.

NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH. We area blue blood program. You can loose to Buffalo or Wichita or Wisconsin...ONCE...but tot get beat by Wisconsin twice, to loose to Wichita AND Buffalo... and not have a single final four in the mix after ten years...that is not blue blood anymore.

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You are not giving Sean Miller a fair shake at all

I think I am. What you do not know is that I was big Miller supporter until 2 seasons ago. When Simmons got benched and Lauri suddenly couldn't shoot I began to ask questions. For example I read up not he PACk line D and why it is used and when it should be used and what type of players should run it. Not one source or even 3...more like ten sources. The answers are not pretty. Look at the remnants of three top5 and one top 10 recruiting class. They finished 8th in the pac12. That is a recruiting issue. Outside of the one and done types, Miller has done a terrible job recruiting. And then there is the pervasive corruption throughout the program. Am I being 'unfair' noting that Alonzi Trier is the only athlete in Arizona history to be busted for PED's? Am I not giving Miller a fair shake when one of his assistants SELF reported and admitted to NCAA violations of buying plane ticket fora player and committing academic fraud for another? I don't think those things should be glossed over - they are serious character flaws (and the fact they are actually fairly minor infractions actually makes them worse IMO). We always used to set a higher standard...WTF happened to AZ basketball?!


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and are extremely biased toward ancient history at this point.
Unfortunately..you are correct here. It is a long gone era and I am definitely stuck in it. Guilty as charged.

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Lute may have made some final 4s and won 1 title, but give Miller another 14 years before you judge fairly.
At the same age, Lute had been to 2 final fours. In 14 years Miller would have to go to 4 Final Fours and win a championship and go to 9 sweet 16's in addition.. that leaves him single year in which he can fail to make the sweet 16. Coach K, if he coaches 14 more years at the same level, won't do that. We're talking abut guy who can't beat Altman and who has missed 33% of the NCAA tournaments since he's been at AZ.

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The only times Lute ever went far was with NBA talent.

This is a self fulfilling prophecy.. right? More talented teams win. UNLESS you are Sean Miller and have Deandre Ayton and can't beat Buffalo. I understand that 1 game does not define anything but 1 game can portend the future. Miller has had nothing but those types of games, when you start looking. Ranked top 5 losing to unranked Oregon, etc...

What does it say that Miller;'s classes have bene consistently ranked with the very most elite and he has nothing to show for it?

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Sean Miller only recruits NBA talent and the very best transfers.

Not at all true. He's had ton of 'busts' and transfers out and lots of players (like our entire team let year) who are simply not AZ good, let alone NBA. Other than Anderson, our transfers have largely been very disappointing (Tollefson, Luther). Other than the super elite, one and dones, Miller has largely flopped. And some of his highest rated recruits, players that were considered fir sure NBA draft picks (Zeus, Ashley, Jarrett, Alkins, Trier...went un drafted). Take the Miller colored glasses off and our over all talent pool has been pretty thin after the top 1 or 2 players each year. 

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Up until 2014 there was a lot of hard evidence that Miller has been better than Lute to that point

Won a few more games against a much weaker schedule, both OOC and in conference. Did MUCH WORSE in the tournament. Produced roughly the same number of draft picks...what metric shall we use?

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and since then he hasn't really been worse.


ummm....dude, Whichta, Xavier, Buffalo...

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Last year was an outlier.

OK...I can agree and accept that. But so much of an outlier that we finish 8th and completely miss the tournament?

I can understand missing the tournament the first year - although he had the talent, it was a rough year and transition...which he handled really well.

But what about 2011-2012 losing to Bucknell AT HOME in the NIT? Was that also an outlier? All of sudden 30% of his seasons are 'outliers'...I hope I have been clear...I can accept some bad years but not this many and not without some great years in-between.

What was the last truly great win for the program. Like when we beat Kansas at Kansas when they were ranked #2. Or what was the last in conference game that mattered nationally the way UCLA-AZ out Stanford-AZ used to ?

My pint is that we have slipped well below whatever the threshold is for an elite program, a blue blood and if you examine it, it is Miller who has made some really bad mistakes in that regard. i.e, not recruiting AZ good players for this past years team over the previous 4 years. Or running the pack line D in 2019...it's just a joke at this point.
 
"How does this guy still have his job?! That makes no sense...the world is getting nuked around him and Sean Miller is still there..."  - Mark Titus

 





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