Arizona Wildcat Basketball Forum | Football | Board | UofA

Arizona Wildcats Basketball Forums => Arizona Wildcats Basketball => Topic started by: WILDcatAZfan on May 14, 2019, 08:31:56 PM

Title: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: WILDcatAZfan on May 14, 2019, 08:31:56 PM
Trier could just be talking about coaches in general, but it'll be taken as if he's talking about Miller. Boggles my mind as I thought he got to do whatever the hell he wanted his last 2 years. Simmons is definitely talking about Miller though. Thoughts?

(https://i.ibb.co/CWr2WXP/20190514-203114.jpg)

Original tweet below
https://twitter.com/ISO_ZO/status/1128390208137846784
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: WILDcatAZfan on May 14, 2019, 08:33:01 PM
Lol @ Fran's response to ZO

https://twitter.com/franfraschilla/status/1128401937345470465
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: KansasCityCats on May 15, 2019, 12:02:47 AM
Those two guys were played out of position...because their position should have been on the bench.

If Kobi thinks he’s a point guard, perhaps he should have learned to pass and handle the basketball during his time in Tucson.

Not sure how Miller held Trier back. His defensive efforts regressed, he took contested jumpers early in shotclocks, he was given the green light to lose games on his own when they “mattered” and he somehow earned minutes despite never going after rebounds as a lengthy “wing”.

Keep crying. You both limited yourselves.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Seansbiggestfan on May 15, 2019, 07:34:47 AM
Those two guys were played out of position...because their position should have been on the bench.

If Kobi thinks he’s a point guard, perhaps he should have learned to pass and handle the basketball during his time in Tucson.

Not sure how Miller held Trier back. His defensive efforts regressed, he took contested jumpers early in shotclocks, he was given the green light to lose games on his own when they “mattered” and he somehow earned minutes despite never going after rebounds as a lengthy “wing”.

Keep crying. You both limited yourselves.

Not to mention that without playing at a program the caliber of Arizona and Miller's connections, they probably wouldn't have received the chances they got to get to the NBA. 
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: arxpert on May 15, 2019, 07:47:04 AM
Re: Kobi Simmons - Very simple. He should have never committed to UofA. We had so much talent at once there was just no room for him. Justin Simon left and went to St. Johns and was a defensive player of the year for his conference I believe and one of the better players overall in his conference. He should have just transferred out to another school instead of going pro. He sounds bitter now that he's been in the real world playing blue collar ball and isn't in the NBA. That's totally his fault. Maybe he could become a NBA player if he works on his game as he gets older, but the problem is every year there are 15 more Kobi Simmons' added to the G League and directly compete with his skill level. NBA teams will always look at the younger player first. Brandon Ashley was one of the best G League players for a while and he never got a shot in the pros. The game just passes you by if you don't hit the ground running in the first year or 2 unfortunately.

RE: ALLONZO TRIER ----> Not sure what's going on there. He went undrafted I believe. Maybe it had to do with his character, maybe the PEDs. He was virtually James Harden for us. Always ball handling, getting to the line and he did the same thing for the Knicks this year. I think NBA teams made a mistake overlooking him. I wanted the Warriors to draft him so badly, but maybe they passed because he is so demanding of the ball. I don't think players like Trier or Harden can ever shine fully in college where its more of a team game. Harden got his stats, but the team was bad. Wildcats were an elite team while Trier was there so there was only so much he was able to do individually. It also didn't help that he wasn't a 45%+ 3pt shooter for how many dribbles he took on the perimeter. And of course his suspensions were bad. Again, another situation where Trier came to a college that boasted a lot of talent and egos that had to get theirs too.

PS - Not sure about the Out Of Position stuff. He was our SG and he dribbled as much as most PGs. Not sure if he thought of himself as a PG or SF, but he isn't anything like JJ Reddick with the run-around catch and shoot game and he wasn't able to (and didn't want to) guard any bigger athletic SFs so we had to play Rawle there. He also wasn't a passer. So if he thought PG was his position then his game is just selfish like Harden's and with that comment I'll continue to enjoy seeing his rise to all star level in the NBA.

So far Trier's game reminds me a lot of DeMar Derozen. Lots of 2's and lots of Free Throws thriving in the NBA.  Maybe he will end up like a solid Rodney Hood contributor. But he has proven he belongs in the NBA and I'm excited to see him get better and better.

Overall I understand where the players come from when they make their comments, but maybe they should start looking inward before projecting outward
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Bear on May 15, 2019, 10:08:33 AM
I didn’t take anything said as inaccurate nor bitter. All that stuff seems to be normal. But if they are bitter or regretful, they will grow and perspectives with them.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: eggdog on May 15, 2019, 10:22:57 AM
I think too much is being made of this. Both players rep the UA to this day and Trier was given free reign to do whatever he wanted when he was here. All those points seem to apply more to Kevin Porter from USC but they could have other friends in this year's draft they're standing up for too. I know Trier and Porter were both from the same area but not sure they're close. Simmons might have a gripe but he always said he was a one and done and came to a team that was pretty stacked thinking he would be able to earn enough PT and he was given a shot when Trier was out but couldn't prove that he was worth keeping on the floor when Trier returned.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: ichi on May 15, 2019, 12:38:16 PM
Yea, another molehill

I doubt Trier would admit his game is flawed enough to need an excuse like being held back, and looking back at his time here it appeared he wasn't, at the time everyone commented on what a free hand he had.  He might feels like he was played out of position.

Kobi, on the other hand, obviously had expectations that Arizona didn't meet.  Unfortunate, he could have made an impact.  He's an example of the differences between Lute's era and now.  Kobi might have played four years had he played back in the 80's 90's and been an impact player, but in the current atmosphere he's found a way to play somewhere oversees.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: 01Cats on May 15, 2019, 01:04:45 PM
Highly doubt Zo was referencing Miller. CSM went above and beyond having Zo’s back throughout his entire career. Miller prides himself on defense and even though Trier had almost zero defensive skills, he remained on the court and let him shoot whatever shots he wanted.

Kobi was playing extremely well while Trier was out for his suspension. Once Trier came back Kobi lost his spot and instead of fighting to earn minutes he sulked and pouted from what it looked like to me. Kobi May have felt like he was held back but is most likely a product of the AAU system where these kids are treated as Gods from their preteen years. If Kobi had applied himself and stayed a couple years there’s no doubt in my mind he would have been a lottery pick. The dude was full of potential.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: GoCatZ on May 15, 2019, 05:11:33 PM
https://twitter.com/JordanKobi/status/1018923170575732737
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Jdmarti on May 15, 2019, 05:30:27 PM
I think one of the problems with both guys in college neither one them defended the way they needed to I think Sean kept pushing kobi to defend better an he seemed like he was not responding an when Trier came back he lost alot of minutes   to Trier who was not much better on defense but Sean seemed to trust Trier more than kobi an Trier was a better offensive player.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 16, 2019, 11:49:39 AM
Agree that Neither should have ever come to Arizona.

BUT THE ISSUE IS NOT THE PLAYERS.

When you have thoroughbreds, as both trier and Simmons are - you don't use them to plough fields. We play the pack line D - designed specifically to slow the game down, not utilize speed, height or ability. Any great basketball player by definition, is playing out of position (or, at least, 3 decades out of time) when they are forced to play the pack line D.

Have no idea why any good players would ever come to a program that runs pack line D.

The notion that Simmons was buried in a talent pool is silly. Simmons is, after Ayton and Markannen the third or fourth best pure BB talent Miller has recruited. Gordon is the only other that even comes close. He was better than everyone but Markannen on the team and better than Markannen after Miller moved Lauri 'inside'. Miller sat Kobi for the last 1/3rd and yet he remained positive, cheered on his team mates and took the high road.  Simmons was wasted and abused by Miller.

Trier needs a running, wide open offense...he would have had huge averages in a Lute type system or a Calipari, Roy Williams, Bill Self type system.

AZ players are held back by the low scoring, brain dead D, lack of true PG's to distribute the ball (other than TJ) and coach who makes capricious, baffling personnel decisions.


 
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: KansasCityCats on May 16, 2019, 12:33:09 PM
Remind me of how many players wildly exceeded Trier’s average of 16.8ppg in 3 years under Lute’s system.

Regardless of the defensive scheme, our offense was built for perimeter players to flourish.

Kobi showed no effort on the court and Zo was given every opportunity to showcase his talents in front of plenty of scouts. If he wasn’t drafted, that was a result of selfishness...not coaching.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 16, 2019, 09:52:47 PM
Quote
Remind me of how many players wildly exceeded Trier’s average of 16.8ppg in 3 years under Lute’s system.

I'm going to respond now and then go look it up. My media guides are packed (moving) but I can do it the old fashioned way (on-line). But I bet we had at least 15 and probably 20 or 25 that hit a 16 ppg average. Will go find out. Remember we used to routinely crack 100, often finished in the 90's and almost always got to at least 80.

Quote
Regardless of the defensive scheme, our offense was built for perimeter players to flourish.

Defensive scheme means everything to modern BB offense.

1. You literally can't run much if you play pack line, defense changes everything. It is true of any defense; how you play defense always impacts offense, good, bad or indifferent.

2. Markannen is the only outside player of the entire Miller era that 'flourished' until he got moved out of position and completely mind-F***ed by Miller, when he was on pace to set an NCAA 3 pt % record. Otherwise AZ has been a pound it inside team. We did it with everyone from Williams to Jeter...and the kick out is almost non existent with Miller. Zeus was four years of pass-the-ball-to-the-big-guy-who-can't-F***ing-catch. It was some seriously fugly BB.

That's the Irony - Miller was guard but apparently does not appreciate guard play.

 
Quote
Kobi showed no effort on the court


Ridiculus.

In his first college game ever, where he was asked to step in for a star player ineligible because of PED's - he scored 18 points and had an assist against #12 Michigan state.

Of 26 games in which he played 20 minutes or more he score in double figures 19 times. 

@ #3 UCLA (who was on fire that year) Simmons posted one of the best stat lines of any game by any Miller player ever and Trier had returned at that point. He had 20 points, 5 assists, 2 steals and 6 rebounds. He was not even a starter in that game. 

When he was (effectively) benched after the breakout game at UCLA
He led the team in steals, he was the best rebounding guard we had, and he had the second best A:TO on the team. Not playing the last third of the season killed his over all stats, but had he simply kept doing what he did, he would have been our second best player that year to Markannen (who also got shafted for the last 1/3rd of the season).

"No effort" - seriously dude, look at the game logs. "Effortless" - yes he made it look easy. That because he was a natural, pure BB talent. Just needed a coach who knew how to use him better.

Simmons did not shoot well - he was not very efficient, but given everything else he did exceptionally well, that can be worked with.

Quote
and Zo was given every opportunity to showcase his talents in front of plenty of scouts. If he wasn’t drafted, that was a result of selfishness...not coaching.

No, it is the result of the system (an maybe him cheating)...the constant substitutions that ignores hot or cold players, the lack of a transition game, the low scores, the inability to play from behind or have any other tricks up your sleeve...I bet there were not 2 guards in all of the NBA draft who had fewer shot attempts than Trier per game and we thought he was a ball hog... unless Wisconsin or NC State or Virginia or whatever hell hole Sendeck coaches in now, was sending guards to the NBA (laughable) Trier was likely the most stifled, limited, and retartrded in development.  Remember he was a for sure one and done...you know like Zeus and Ashley and Jarrett and all of those other 5 stars that Miller ruined and who all needed up not drafted.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: KansasCityCats on May 17, 2019, 06:28:20 AM
Markkanen took 4.4 3PA per game.  Trier took 4.8/game.  The next highest was Rawle at 3.2/game.  Don't tell me that Lauri was "out of position".  On defense, he was forced to guard bigs...but he was ALWAYS on the perimeter on the offensive side of the ball. 

The fact that Kobi "shot poorly" but put up "double digits in 19 of 20 games" indicates that he was selfish.  That has nothing to do with effort...just the amount of shots that you put up...which eventually lands you on the bench.  He was the ONLY player to shoot less than 40% from the field and only averaged 2 assists in 23.5 minutes per game. 

That's the trend of a kid that wants to make the league...not win NCAA games.  Throw in the fact that he was a below-average defender, and there's no question that he deserved to pout from the sidelines.

BTW, there are only two occasions since the 1995-96 season that an Arizona player eclipsed 20 PPG: Terry & Gardner (once each).  Trier's 16.8 PPG with a "pack-line D" proves that Miller gave him the green light.  Zo didn't take advantage of the situation because the scouts obviously didn't think he was good enough to deserve a high draft pick.  (Glad he proved them wrong).
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 17, 2019, 10:55:18 AM
16ppg by players recruited and coached by Lute:

1985 Eddie Smith 16.1
1987 Sean Elliott 19.3
1988 Sean Elliott 19.8
1989 Sean Elliott 22.3
1989 Anthony Cook 17.5
1992 Sean Rooks 16.3
1992 Chris Mills 16.3
1993 Chris Mills 20.4
1994 Khalid Reeves 24.2
1994 Damon Stoudamire 18.5
1995 Damon Stoudamire 22.8
1997 Michael Dickerson 18.9
1998 Micheal Dickerson 18.0
1998 Mike Bibby 17.2
1998 Miles Simon 17.2
1999 Jason Terry 21.9
2001 Gilbert Arenas 16.2
2002 Jason Gardner 20.4
2004 Hassan Adams 17.2
2004 Salim Stoudmaire 16.3
2005 Salim Stoudmaie 18.4
2006 Hassan Adams 17.5
2007 Marcus Williams 16.6
2008 Jeryd Bayless 19.7
2008 Chase Budinger 17.1
2009 Chase Budinger 18.0
2009 Jordan Hill 18.3

27 times a player averaged 16ppg or more - exceeding the high end of my estimate.

Technically - the mark is 16.8ppg.  21 times a player had over 16.8ppg. Almost dead center of my prediction of between 15 and 25.

UNDER MILLER players over 16ppg:

2011 Derrick Williams 19.5
2014 Nick Johnson 16.3
2017 Alonzo Trier 17.2
2018 Deandre Ayton 20.1
2018 Alonzo Trier 18.1

5 players in 10 years. Lute had 27 in 24 years. More than twice as many per year.

BTW - Trier never averaged 16.8ppg in any season. His frosh year was 14.8. Where did you get that 16.8 number?

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/allonzo-trier-1.html

 






 
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Bear on May 17, 2019, 11:20:50 AM
Throwing a different perspective into the mix here.

I like Kobi. He came into a team and did the best he could and won us some games while Trier was out. He became part of the team identity. Both everyone knows Trier was better than a freshman Kobi. I didn’t want Trier to start when he came back and wanted him to come off the bench. Still think he should have. I don’t think his late arrival made the starting squad better. He should have been 6th man to finish the season.

 Either way, Trier needs to be ball dominant to be effective. It’s his game. The numbers for the rest of squad were going to go down no matter whether he started or came off the bench. Kobi saw the worst of it. Lauri got hit too.

Lauri’s game didn’t suffer because he was on the inside. His game was already trending down. He needed to mix it up and get some easy buckets and make defenses adjust. He isn’t a 2 guard. He can’t just sit outside in the corner all game. I do think Lauri adjusted to playing with Kobi though and Trier coming back affected flow late in the season making it less than ideal to have Trier starting.

Trier absolutely played out of position. Because he can’t keep a guard in front of him so he had to be our 3. He couldn’t stop those either but it was as good as compromise as could be had. He also had to feed Ayton. So in that sense he was held back. Better for the team but not necessarily better for his mini Harden game (less the assists). As much green light as Trier had early season, there came a time where he started passing the ball more and wasn’t as aggressive. You have to think Miller told him to pass instead of driving into 3 defenders. Happens to most players every year as conference play tightens up. Trier let it roll off his back and got his assist rate up. Randolph went MIA.

No kid has ultimate green light under Miller and none should. I am not the fondest of Trier because his game isn’t conducive to college team play but the kid did learn to pass the ball at the end and earned an NBA contract. Hopefully Kobi gets there too.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: KansasCityCats on May 17, 2019, 11:35:02 AM
Trier's 16.8 PPG were his average over 3 seasons.  He put up 18.1 as a Junior, which would rank him as the 9th highest individual scorer during Lute's "coaching" era (not including Pennell/O'Neill's teams).

Miller has produced 7 first-round draft picks in 10 years at Arizona.  I believe Lute had 12 over a 25 year coaching career in Tucson.  Miller is not holding-back talent...especially considering the likelihood of 2+ more 1st rounders going after next season.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Jav on May 17, 2019, 03:09:48 PM
Miller runs a slower system and has more emphasis on offensive and defensive efficiency than total points.  You can argue the merits of the systems all you want, but comparing total PPG isn't a good barometer.  Points per possession is probably a better comparison, but I'm not sure what point is trying to be made anyway. 

Remember when people used to bitch about Olson's teams being too soft.  That they couldn't do well in the tournament where the refs let teams be physical?  Now we get to hear how Sean's teams are too big and don't play fast enough to win  ;D

Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 18, 2019, 09:57:07 AM
Throwing a different perspective into the mix here.

I like Kobi. He came into a team and did the best he could and won us some games while Trier was out. He became part of the team identity. Both everyone knows Trier was better than a freshman Kobi. I didn’t want Trier to start when he came back and wanted him to come off the bench. Still think he should have. I don’t think his late arrival made the starting squad better. He should have been 6th man to finish the season.

 Either way, Trier needs to be ball dominant to be effective. It’s his game. The numbers for the rest of squad were going to go down no matter whether he started or came off the bench. Kobi saw the worst of it. Lauri got hit too.

Lauri’s game didn’t suffer because he was on the inside. His game was already trending down. He needed to mix it up and get some easy buckets and make defenses adjust. He isn’t a 2 guard. He can’t just sit outside in the corner all game. I do think Lauri adjusted to playing with Kobi though and Trier coming back affected flow late in the season making it less than ideal to have Trier starting.

Trier absolutely played out of position. Because he can’t keep a guard in front of him so he had to be our 3. He couldn’t stop those either but it was as good as compromise as could be had. He also had to feed Ayton. So in that sense he was held back. Better for the team but not necessarily better for his mini Harden game (less the assists). As much green light as Trier had early season, there came a time where he started passing the ball more and wasn’t as aggressive. You have to think Miller told him to pass instead of driving into 3 defenders. Happens to most players every year as conference play tightens up. Trier let it roll off his back and got his assist rate up. Randolph went MIA.

No kid has ultimate green light under Miller and none should. I am not the fondest of Trier because his game isn’t conducive to college team play but the kid did learn to pass the ball at the end and earned an NBA contract. Hopefully Kobi gets there too.

Great post Bear. Agree wth out everything....except:

Quote
He can’t just sit outside in the corner all game.

Why not?

Have you seen the Bulls play? Lauri is their 7'0" starting power forward. In 2 years he has 733 3PA and a 36% career 3P%. He has 716 FGA and 43% career FG%. How many power forwards in the NBA have fewer FGA than 3PA?

We also had Ristic, Comanche and Pinder - all better inside players than Lauri.

I forget the exact percentage but when Miller made the announcement that he was 'moving Lauri inside' Lauri was shooting some ridiculous % from 3 point range, like .584 or something, might have even been higher. I believe that coaches have to push players out of comfort zones to make them better sometimes, but if a player is shooting .584 from anywhere but the free throw line, you do to correct his mechanics, change his position or offensive scheme of the team....you simply tell every one else to pass him the damn ball. 

IMO, the damage was psychological. We saw Lauri start that stupid, idiotic hedge Miller has his big men do on defense and on offense he seemed confused by his role, never quite sure if he should shoot or not. It destroyed him. 
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 18, 2019, 10:04:30 AM
Miller runs a slower system and has more emphasis on offensive and defensive efficiency than total points.  You can argue the merits of the systems all you want, but comparing total PPG isn't a good barometer.  Points per possession is probably a better comparison, but I'm not sure what point is trying to be made anyway. 

Remember when people used to bitch about Olson's teams being too soft.  That they couldn't do well in the tournament where the refs let teams be physical?  Now we get to hear how Sean's teams are too big and don't play fast enough to win  ;D

This is my point more or less.

My contention is that Trier would have had significantly higher averages in an Olson type system.

Efficiency does matter... but an inefficient team with slightly lower shooting %'s that can routinely knock down 90 points, IMO is better than a more efficient team that struggles to hit 60. Not sure exactly where that line is, and defense is fine with me, I don't mind low scoring games, but IMO, a team needs to be bale to shift into higher gears and Miller has only 1 gear.

The other point is that many players expected to be one and dones come into Miller's system and it is a system that not a single NBA team uses any part of and they end up not drafted. Alkins, Ashley, Jarrett, Zeus, Trier....all considered one and dones or, at least, certain NBA draft picks...

 
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Jdmarti on May 18, 2019, 01:14:27 PM
I think many of those guys for one reason or another weren't NBA players Ashley was good but was a kind of short zeus game did not translate to NBA modern days no offensive game he was old style center  grant je left way to soon before he was ready I think alkins lacked  height an consisted shooting but still has a chance  Trier had a bad image an known as a selfish  offensive player bad defender I do think he improved as a player from his time at Arizona.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: eggdog on May 18, 2019, 05:10:34 PM
The other point is that many players expected to be one and dones come into Miller's system and it is a system that not a single NBA team uses any part of and they end up not drafted. Alkins, Ashley, Jarrett, Zeus, Trier....all considered one and dones or, at least, certain NBA draft picks...

Zeus, Ashley and Jerrett were part of one of the worst recruiting classes of all time - Duke, Kansas and Kentucky's top ranked players coming in that year also didn't get drafted. You can see the class and where they were picked here - https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_2012.html

Trier might not have gotten drafted but his time here paid off an it's looking like he'll be in the league for a long time and hopefully Rawle can work his way there, but I'm not sure he has the right size to play in the NBA with his skill set.

Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: arxpert on May 18, 2019, 06:12:08 PM
Liquidated is just a Sean Miller hater. Pretty sure almost every player listed with 16ppg+ was a PG, SG, or SF on the small side. You can't compare eras, but I am curious how many PF or C ever scored even 10ppg or more for Lute Olson. Sean Miller has been known to present a much more balanced attack on offense and featured numerous big's.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: GoCatZ on May 18, 2019, 06:49:38 PM
Someone in here said they thought liquid was Trey Mason or someone related to the Mason's & he never denied it so...
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: mvpreed2 on May 19, 2019, 07:54:38 AM
To be as short as possible, I can understand the premise of what Liquid is saying, but he is slightly off in his evidence.

Yes KS was a talent, but he wasn’t playing out of position.
HE said that he wanted to play PG at the next level, and I believe that was a reason why it came down to Arizona & Ohio State.
AT didn’t play out of position though.
He was 6’5 and was a gunner, or in 2K terms, a shot-creating playmaker.
He was always going to play SG because most of our SGs in the past have been gunners and Miller as has given them the green light (Johnson/Johnson/York/Trier).

As far as the defense goes, yes the PLD sucks, I don’t like it, but it has been proven that it works if Miller has the right athletes (2013/2014/2018).
There isn’t much more to say about it.

— BUT —

The one thing I can’t begin to understand is how do you (Liquid) believe Simmons was the 4th best PURE talent we have ever had at Arizona?
What are your metrics? HS production? NBA potential?
Looking at past classes I can name roughly 6-8 prospects that we can debate were as good OR better than Simmons, HS/College/NBA doesn’t matter, want to see?

Williams (2010)
Gordon (2013)
Hollis-Jefferson (2013)
Johnson (2014)
Trier (2015)
Anderson (2015)
Markkanen (2016)
Ayton (2017)
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: arxpert on May 19, 2019, 09:35:13 AM
Not a top 4 player at UofA all time (under Miller) by any means. Not even top 10.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: KansasCityCats on May 19, 2019, 10:09:12 AM
He definitely had the top-4 ego. Wish he had the top-4 confidence in the court to go along with it.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: dkdono on May 19, 2019, 01:21:49 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it is Trey....He is/was attending law school at CU...I had a brief text interaction with him a year or so ago...he appeared to be very negative to the program....if he has passed the bar by now...I would expect to see him advertising locally on Judge Judy for clients....
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: eggdog on May 19, 2019, 01:47:28 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if it is Trey....He is/was attending law school at CU...I had a brief text interaction with him a year or so ago...he appeared to be very negative to the program....if he has passed the bar by now...I would expect to see him advertising locally on Judge Judy for clients....

According to his twitter page he goes to ASU for law school, probably couldn't hack it at CU - and he definitely has it out for Miller, tweeting negative stuff about him during the trial.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 20, 2019, 02:41:21 PM
Liquidated is just a Sean Miller hater. Pretty sure almost every player listed with 16ppg+ was a PG, SG, or SF on the small side. You can't compare eras, but I am curious how many PF or C ever scored even 10ppg or more for Lute Olson. Sean Miller has been known to present a much more balanced attack on offense and featured numerous big's.

Yes, I hate Sean Miller, every true Wildcat fan should. But underestimating Lute's big men is a classic mistake. The guard play was so stratospherically great, but AZ under Lute had excellent big men too and had you seen it, you would not have even raised the question. It was NEVER an issue of balance, and if it was then balance is meaningless because Lute went to final fours and won a championship with 'unbalanced' teams.

Lute's initial offense at AZ was classic high low post UCLA/Wooden offense that he learned at Long Beach state. 1st scoring option was ALWAYS the low post. That is essentially true of Miller's offense too.

Lute got run off the court by eastern tennessee polytechnic (who ever) and they did not have even have a center or true power forward and Lute changed everything. He opened the game up and started running. He started recruiting athletes instead of BB players. You can read his comments about it in his book. Big men suddenly did not look like Rooks, they looked like Bramlett and could run the floor...

He was also influenced by Kerrs ability to shoot the 3 and began to prioritize that in guards... which, apparently, Miller has totally ignored.     

Interestingly the game is evolving more and more towards the 3 point shot now and Miller continues to hide from it, despite massive amounts of evidence (analytics) that show otherwise. 

(all numbers are season average ppg and * indicate team leader for that year)

Eddie Smith (13.2) and Pete Williams (14.5*) played forward/center on Lutes first team at AZ in 1983-1984. They led the team in scoring. Freshmen Kerr averaged 7.1.
84-85 Smith (16.1*) Williams (12.5)
86-87 Tolbert (13.9)
87-88 Tolbert (14.1), Cook (13.9)
88-89 Cook (17.5)
89-90 Buechler (14.9*), Rooks (12.7), Brian Williams (10.6)
90-91 Brian Williams (14.0), Rooks (11.9)
91-92 Rooks (16.3*)
92-93 Stokes (11.5)
93-94 Owes (12.9), Blair (10.1)
94-95 Owes (15.1), Blair (12.4), Davis (9.9 almost)
95-96 Davis (14.2*)
97-98 Bramlett (10.4) -that is on a team with Dickerson (18.0), Simon (17.4), Terry (10.6) & Bibby (17.2) - All 5 starter 10+
98-99 Bramlett (14.2), Wright (13.9)
99-00 Woods (15.6*), Wright (15.5) - that is on a team with Arenas (15.4), Gardner (12.6) and Richard Jefferson (11.0), only second time ever all five starters averaged 10+.
00-01 Wright (15.6*), Woods (13.2)
01-02 Anderson (12.4), Frye (9.5...almost)
02-03 Frye (12.6), Anderson (10.7)
03-04 Frye (15.9), Iggy (12.9)
04-05 Frye (15.8), Adams (12.7) - Adams played the four most of that season.
05-06 IRad (12.1)
06-07 IRad (15.1), Budinger (15.6)
07-08 Budinger (17.1*), Hill (13.2)
08-09 Budinger (18.0), Hill (18.3*)

MILLERS PLAYERS

09-10 D. Williams (15.7*)
10-11 D. Williams (19.5*)
11-12 Hill (12.9), Perry (12.2)
12-13 Hill (13.4)
14-15 Ashley (12.2)
15-16 Anderson (15.3)
16-17 Ristic (10.9)
17-18 Ristic (12.2), Ayton (20.1*)
18-19 Jeter (10.9)


Millers inside players average lower totals - just like his guards...we score a lot fewer points now as a team and it effects the stats of every player. Again, low scoring BB is fine with me, as long as you win and low scoring teams don't win. Yes, Virginia, was total anomaly this past year, they were a high scoring team that slowed it down...and they had the easiest path to the championship in 20 years or more.

 




Keep in mind that all the years where a big man did not lea us in scoring we had players like Elliott and Mills and Dickerson who were doing so...



 



Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 20, 2019, 02:56:35 PM
1. I am not Trey Mason and I do not know the Mason family. I did know Harvey Mason very casually in college and hung out with those guys little bit. The issue is Miller;s behavior and poor decision making - yet again.

Pitts ADMITTED to sexual misconduct (January) and Miller refused to boot him from the team for another full month until pressure form alumni and the newspaper printed Mason's letter. If for no other reason, you do not piss off an alumni who has 2 legacy athletes at Arizona. Miller needed to take Mason's side - incredibly piss poor judgement, which we now know is par for the course with Miller. It also split the locker room, Pitts was not popular among his team mates and Trey was.

2. Has it crossed anyones mind that someone might not Miller for performance issues? You do not have to 'hate' someone to want them fired for gross amounts of corruption throughout the program they are responsible for, for giving the university a bad name, for finishing 8th in conference, for having a losing record to Altman, for not advancing to the final four, for abusing players, not developing players, not recruiting well outside of the one and ones (this past year is a perfect example).

There are many, many, rational well founded, easily supported reasons to want Miller gone. My 'hate' is product of Miller's own absurd actions and poor performance.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: jumpinjohnny on May 20, 2019, 03:46:21 PM
"I am not Trey Mason."

By any chance is your first name Dick? If it's not, it should be.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: ichi on May 20, 2019, 04:58:32 PM
seems like the professional, legal, appropriate course would be to remain as impartial and objective, to treat everyone as fairly as possible, to be discrete about what you say and do, to follow established procedures about how to handle such situations

if any coach showed favoritism for or against a player in order to avoid pissing off well-connected alumni, if any coach violated any of the above proprieties in order to side with a popular player, then I would hope that everyone who cares about the program would denounce that

add ethically challenged to all of the other things I've said about you
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: arxpert on May 20, 2019, 09:04:52 PM
A ton of the "bigs" Liquid mentioned are glorified SFs. Especially in the modern era.  Chase Budinger, Hot Sauce, Solomon Hill? are not Bigs LOL. Bigs are Loren Woods.

Analytics say 3 and D. Shoot as many 3s as possible and play D. That only works when you have catch and shoot players. Miller has had success playing a more traditional style with elite level athletes. He has adapted his coaching style way more than you give credit for. In game adjustments are underrated when you have tunnel vision to the negative.

He has been the coach for 10 years right? In 10 years he has had actual PF and Centers (NBA Caliber) average high PPG's. He has made what? 3 Elite 8s, 2 Sweet Sixteens and was never truly blown off the court. Multiple conference titles and tourney wins to boot. I believe some buzzer beaters and games of a life time have been the thorn in Miller's side throughout his tenure more than the couple Wichita St/Buffalo games sprinkled in.

You are not giving Sean Miller a fair shake at all and are extremely biased toward ancient history at this point. Lute may have made some final 4s and won 1 title, but give Miller another 14 years before you judge fairly. The only times Lute ever went far was with NBA talent. Sean Miller only recruits NBA talent and the very best transfers. Up until 2014 there was a lot of hard evidence that Miller has been better than Lute to that point and since then he hasn't really been worse. Last year was an outlier.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: KansasCityCats on May 21, 2019, 06:10:45 AM
With the exception of last season's mess, Miller's teams have never shot less than 36% from 3-point land.

Lute's final 5 seasons: 2006-07 (34.1%) / 2005-06 (31.9%) / 2004-05 (40.2%) / 2003-04 (38.6%) / 2002-03 (35.3%)

Don't forget that the line was pushed back.  Miller hasn't lived up to the PGU name...but he always brings in consistent outside shooters, including frontcourt players that can knock it down.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: eggdog on May 21, 2019, 09:37:03 AM
Lute is to the U of A what Wooden is to UCLA, a Hall of Famer who put us on the map. If we're going to compare every coach to what Lute did we're not going to always be happy with the results. It's also a different era so comparisons aren't always fair but Sean Miller has done great things here and has a bright, probably Hall of Fame, career ahead of him and real fans realize this. We got lucky we didn't end up with Floyd and turn into other programs who have struggled to replace a legendary coach.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 22, 2019, 08:31:15 PM
seems like the professional, legal, appropriate course would be to remain as impartial and objective, to treat everyone as fairly as possible, to be discrete about what you say and do, to follow established procedures about how to handle such situations

if any coach showed favoritism for or against a player in order to avoid pissing off well-connected alumni, if any coach violated any of the above proprieties in order to side with a popular player, then I would hope that everyone who cares about the program would denounce that

add ethically challenged to all of the other things I've said about you

Please note that my comments are not about whether Pitts was guilty or not, i am talking about AFTER he was found (and admitted that he was) at fault. It took an entire moth to extricate him from the program AFTER the findings. Feel like we've been over this territory, several times, there is a well researched AZ Daily Star article that lays out the timeline.

Yes, of course, up until the findings the coach should remain entirely objective. And then he should support the University's behavior codes and respond appropriately to the findings. Miller did not do that until Harvey Mason went public.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: eggdog on May 22, 2019, 09:29:39 PM
Please note that my comments are not about whether Pitts was guilty or not, i am talking about AFTER he was found (and admitted that he was) at fault. It took an entire moth to extricate him from the program AFTER the findings. Feel like we've been over this territory, several times, there is a well researched AZ Daily Star article that lays out the timeline.

Yes, of course, up until the findings the coach should remain entirely objective. And then he should support the University's behavior codes and respond appropriately to the findings. Miller did not do that until Harvey Mason went public.

Here are some statements from that well researched article and in no way does Pitts ever admit to any wrongdoing. If he was guilty of what he was accused of that is certainly horrible but unfortunately it happens at a lot of schools and unless the coach was involved with covering it up I don't see why you keep blaming Miller for something that happened in a player's dorm room.

"Miller may not have known the details of Pitts’ disciplinary situation as it was unfolding. UA Dean of Students Kendal Washington White said her office is solely responsible for handling student misconduct cases — the athletic department would not be privy to detailed information but may get periodic reports on the progress and outcome of a case, she said."

Pitts, who was not criminally charged in the Dec. 6 incident that led to his suspension, said through his attorney Saturday that the outcome was grossly unfair.

“I categorically deny any allegation or suggestion of sexual misconduct. Both of us were under the influence of alcohol, but we were fully aware of what we were doing,” Pitts said in an email statement given to the Star by Tucson attorney Ali Farhang.

Pitts’ statement said he and his family “are currently reviewing our legal options.”
“I will vigorously fight to clear my name and prove my innocence,” he said.

The entire article can be found here: https://tucson.com/news/local/education/college/former-arizona-wildcat-pitts-was-suspended-after-ua-finding-of/article_4fd36b14-3fed-56f7-860b-e3f3f599b30b.html
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 22, 2019, 09:35:59 PM
Dude, seriously, you are totally delusional about Miller. He is nowhere near the same level as Lute at anything excpet recruiting rankings which is then an indictment of his coaching because he has recruited significantly better (allegedly) and done significantly worse.

Quote
A ton of the "bigs" Liquid mentioned are glorified SFs. Especially in the modern era.  Chase Budinger, Hot Sauce, Solomon Hill? are not Bigs LOL. Bigs are Loren Woods.
YOU WROTE:
Quote
...but I am curious how many PF or C ever scored even 10ppg or more for Lute Olson.
Budunger, Hill and Adams all started at power forward for AZ in the years I noted them. I was applying your metric ('PF or C'). The very nature of college ball - there just are not very many true 4's out there. Most of the guys who play power forward in the NBA were centers most of their lives. A lot of college 4's are glorified small forwards...thats kind of the way it works. But you asked fora list, but position of who averaged more than 10pts per game...i noted every starting PF or C that did under Olson.

Quote
Analytics say 3 and D. Shoot as many 3s as possible and play D. That only works when you have catch and shoot players.

OK...doing good so far with this line of reasoning....

Quote
Miller has had success playing a more traditional style with elite level athletes. He has adapted his coaching style way more than you give credit for.

but then you go off the rails. 1. He has NOT had success. ZERO Final Fours. In ten years. Even the most ardent Miller supporters don't think have has adapted AT ALL. PLEASE...cite some examples of how he has adapted his coaching style?  You mention yourself - "with elite level athletes". Why would he not adapt to their abilities? If they can run, and are great in the open court, why not run more?

Quote
In game adjustments are underrated when you have tunnel vision to the negative.
I played basketball and have watched basketball for 35 years...noting that Miller is literally doing everything wrong is not a tunnel vision to the negative. Analytics is the future of college hoops, pack line is the past, adjusting to individual athletes is the future (although Lute knew that 30 years ago) and forcing players to play roles while disregarding their abilities is the past. Miller is a throw back and not a good one.

Quote
He has been the coach for 10 years right? In 10 years he has had actual PF and Centers (NBA Caliber) average high PPG's.

No. He specifically hasn't. That's the point. We play avow scoring, slow down game. Players at every position in his system are going to have lower scoring averages. Look at the lute players and Miller players... any position...season averages. It is a different style, approach and ideology. Different is fine...until you loose to Buffalo...with NBA lottery picks. And Wichita. And Xavier...in which case 'different' starts to become 'inept'. 

Quote
He has made what? 3 Elite 8s, 2 Sweet Sixteens and was never truly blown off the court. Multiple conference titles and tourney wins to boot. I believe some buzzer beaters and games of a life time have been the thorn in Miller's side throughout his tenure more than the couple Wichita St/Buffalo games sprinkled in.

NOT. GOOD. ENOUGH. We area blue blood program. You can loose to Buffalo or Wichita or Wisconsin...ONCE...but tot get beat by Wisconsin twice, to loose to Wichita AND Buffalo... and not have a single final four in the mix after ten years...that is not blue blood anymore.

Quote
You are not giving Sean Miller a fair shake at all

I think I am. What you do not know is that I was big Miller supporter until 2 seasons ago. When Simmons got benched and Lauri suddenly couldn't shoot I began to ask questions. For example I read up not he PACk line D and why it is used and when it should be used and what type of players should run it. Not one source or even 3...more like ten sources. The answers are not pretty. Look at the remnants of three top5 and one top 10 recruiting class. They finished 8th in the pac12. That is a recruiting issue. Outside of the one and done types, Miller has done a terrible job recruiting. And then there is the pervasive corruption throughout the program. Am I being 'unfair' noting that Alonzi Trier is the only athlete in Arizona history to be busted for PED's? Am I not giving Miller a fair shake when one of his assistants SELF reported and admitted to NCAA violations of buying plane ticket fora player and committing academic fraud for another? I don't think those things should be glossed over - they are serious character flaws (and the fact they are actually fairly minor infractions actually makes them worse IMO). We always used to set a higher standard...WTF happened to AZ basketball?!


Quote
and are extremely biased toward ancient history at this point.
Unfortunately..you are correct here. It is a long gone era and I am definitely stuck in it. Guilty as charged.

Quote
Lute may have made some final 4s and won 1 title, but give Miller another 14 years before you judge fairly.
At the same age, Lute had been to 2 final fours. In 14 years Miller would have to go to 4 Final Fours and win a championship and go to 9 sweet 16's in addition.. that leaves him single year in which he can fail to make the sweet 16. Coach K, if he coaches 14 more years at the same level, won't do that. We're talking abut guy who can't beat Altman and who has missed 33% of the NCAA tournaments since he's been at AZ.

Quote
The only times Lute ever went far was with NBA talent.

This is a self fulfilling prophecy.. right? More talented teams win. UNLESS you are Sean Miller and have Deandre Ayton and can't beat Buffalo. I understand that 1 game does not define anything but 1 game can portend the future. Miller has had nothing but those types of games, when you start looking. Ranked top 5 losing to unranked Oregon, etc...

What does it say that Miller;'s classes have bene consistently ranked with the very most elite and he has nothing to show for it?

Quote
Sean Miller only recruits NBA talent and the very best transfers.

Not at all true. He's had ton of 'busts' and transfers out and lots of players (like our entire team let year) who are simply not AZ good, let alone NBA. Other than Anderson, our transfers have largely been very disappointing (Tollefson, Luther). Other than the super elite, one and dones, Miller has largely flopped. And some of his highest rated recruits, players that were considered fir sure NBA draft picks (Zeus, Ashley, Jarrett, Alkins, Trier...went un drafted). Take the Miller colored glasses off and our over all talent pool has been pretty thin after the top 1 or 2 players each year. 

Quote
Up until 2014 there was a lot of hard evidence that Miller has been better than Lute to that point

Won a few more games against a much weaker schedule, both OOC and in conference. Did MUCH WORSE in the tournament. Produced roughly the same number of draft picks...what metric shall we use?

Quote
and since then he hasn't really been worse.


ummm....dude, Whichta, Xavier, Buffalo...

Quote
Last year was an outlier.

OK...I can agree and accept that. But so much of an outlier that we finish 8th and completely miss the tournament?

I can understand missing the tournament the first year - although he had the talent, it was a rough year and transition...which he handled really well.

But what about 2011-2012 losing to Bucknell AT HOME in the NIT? Was that also an outlier? All of sudden 30% of his seasons are 'outliers'...I hope I have been clear...I can accept some bad years but not this many and not without some great years in-between.

What was the last truly great win for the program. Like when we beat Kansas at Kansas when they were ranked #2. Or what was the last in conference game that mattered nationally the way UCLA-AZ out Stanford-AZ used to ?

My pint is that we have slipped well below whatever the threshold is for an elite program, a blue blood and if you examine it, it is Miller who has made some really bad mistakes in that regard. i.e, not recruiting AZ good players for this past years team over the previous 4 years. Or running the pack line D in 2019...it's just a joke at this point.
 
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 22, 2019, 09:48:50 PM
Lute is to the U of A what Wooden is to UCLA, a Hall of Famer who put us on the map. If we're going to compare every coach to what Lute did we're not going to always be happy with the results. It's also a different era so comparisons aren't always fair but Sean Miller has done great things here and has a bright, probably Hall of Fame, career ahead of him and real fans realize this. We got lucky we didn't end up with Floyd and turn into other programs who have struggled to replace a legendary coach.

I think this is fair criticism of my criticism and obviously I don't entirely agree, but I have always said that Miller handled the transition brilliantly and following legend is not easy. And Floyd would have been an unmitigated disaster.

I would counter with the program should be bigger than coach...Lute or Miller. The program, like Kentucky or Duke or Kansas should be self sustaining. We are AZ..we cannot go 10 years without a final four. We cannot miss the tournament. We cannot recruit better than elite programs and do far worse and we have done far worse.

I don't like his game coaching but I can deal with that IF he is not tarnishing AZ BB's image. The corruption is way over the top, far to broad and deep... I cannot and will not ever accept that and, IMO, AZ basketball will not be healthy until Miler leaves one way or the other. 
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: KansasCityCats on May 23, 2019, 05:10:25 AM
We’ve all responded to the same criticisms and agree that you look at the current program with a “half glass empty” mentality.

It should be noted that Arizona is FAR from being a blue-blood program. One National Championship in its history?  That puts us nowhere near the schools that earned the title, so we, as fans, need to keep the expectations at a realistic level.

Prior to every season, Wildcat fans have optimism. We won multiple conference titles, conference tournaments and a lot of basketball games. Our players allowed opportunities to slip away when we were on the brink of Final Fours and it’s only a matter of time before we can celebrate the 2nd championship.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: arxpert on May 24, 2019, 09:37:40 AM
I see plenty of In-Game adjustments that Miller makes on the fly every game. He tries very hard to coach up the team. He takes the timeouts and manages the game. He manages foul trouble well and adjusts to attack teams to get them into foul trouble early and often. He has sound game plans as all Winning coaches do. He is a much better X's and O's guy than you think whether its adjusting D to the moments, making 10-15 point comeback runs when there are 10 minutes left in the 2nd half, or even all the out of bounds set plays that ended up easy dunks or catch and shoots. Just remember, you don't have to see points scored to know that Miller calls plays. The results are always on the players in a make or miss league.

Buffalo, Xavier, Wichita games happen. What do you say to the Coach Ks, Tom Izzos etc when they lose as a 2 seed to a 15 seed? It happens. It's happened recently for those 2 specifically. It's embarrassing. Sean Miller didn't sweat through his shirt because he didn't care and wasn't trying his best. Buffalo? Good for them, they beat us, a very mentally battered team that still won the pac12 tourney (and rightfully so all things considered) and they followed it up with an amazing season this year going from a 13 seed to a 6 seed with the same players so it was not a fluke at all. Xavier... Wisconsin x2... do you honestly think that Sweet 16 and Elite 8 games are supposed to be easy on a silver platter? Wisconsin was a 1 seed for a reason. You think Xavier was bad because they were an 11 seed? What about 9 Seed Uconn that won it all? They were good games with good players and good coaches. Give credit to other teams once in a while.

Sometimes we play teams that have the games of their lives. In 2011 we knocked out No.1 Duke in the Sweet 16 having a 2nd half game of our lives with Derrick Williams under Sean Miller which was an incredible result given it was the beginning of the Miller Era. We then lost to the eventual Champs in UConn by 2 points in the elite 8. That was Sean Miller's 2nd season. Lute didn't make it past the 1st round until his 5th season when he went to the Final 4 - which at the time could have been considered a very random flash in the pan Butler, Loyola Chicago, or VCU-like run. I don't know about you, but I remember us losing in the 1st round with a sick starting 5 including Andre Iguodala and then losing to Illinois in the Elite 8 up 15 with about 3 minutes left under Lute. It happens.

I'm not sure if you realize that the Final 4 is only 1 game further than the Elite 8. Or in other words, essentially 2 or 3 points scored more than Sean Miller has achieved in each of the losses (buzzer beater, 1,2,3 point losses except Wisconsin which was free throws to seal). Good grief. 5 Pac12 Titles, 3 Pac12 Tourney titles, 3 Elite 8s and 2 Sweet 16s is plenty good enough to not be so entitled.

You can't call UofA a blue blood just because we made some final 4s in the past. We've had some good runs. Gonzaga with Mark Few is becoming very equal to what Lute was to Arizona and thrusting a program from obscurity into a powerhouse. Sean Miller didn't allow UofA to fade into obscurity at all. He upheld the tradition. Understand the differences between blue bloods and powerhouses?
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 24, 2019, 05:31:31 PM
I see plenty of In-Game adjustments that Miller makes on the fly every game. He tries very hard to coach up the team. He takes the timeouts and manages the game. He manages foul trouble well and adjusts to attack teams to get them into foul trouble early and often. He has sound game plans as all Winning coaches do. He is a much better X's and O's guy than you think whether its adjusting D to the moments, making 10-15 point comeback runs when there are 10 minutes left in the 2nd half, or even all the out of bounds set plays that ended up easy dunks or catch and shoots. Just remember, you don't have to see points scored to know that Miller calls plays. The results are always on the players in a make or miss league.

Buffalo, Xavier, Wichita games happen. What do you say to the Coach Ks, Tom Izzos etc when they lose as a 2 seed to a 15 seed? It happens. It's happened recently for those 2 specifically. It's embarrassing. Sean Miller didn't sweat through his shirt because he didn't care and wasn't trying his best. Buffalo? Good for them, they beat us, a very mentally battered team that still won the pac12 tourney (and rightfully so all things considered) and they followed it up with an amazing season this year going from a 13 seed to a 6 seed with the same players so it was not a fluke at all. Xavier... Wisconsin x2... do you honestly think that Sweet 16 and Elite 8 games are supposed to be easy on a silver platter? Wisconsin was a 1 seed for a reason. You think Xavier was bad because they were an 11 seed? What about 9 Seed Uconn that won it all? They were good games with good players and good coaches. Give credit to other teams once in a while.

Sometimes we play teams that have the games of their lives. In 2011 we knocked out No.1 Duke in the Sweet 16 having a 2nd half game of our lives with Derrick Williams under Sean Miller which was an incredible result given it was the beginning of the Miller Era. We then lost to the eventual Champs in UConn by 2 points in the elite 8. That was Sean Miller's 2nd season. Lute didn't make it past the 1st round until his 5th season when he went to the Final 4 - which at the time could have been considered a very random flash in the pan Butler, Loyola Chicago, or VCU-like run. I don't know about you, but I remember us losing in the 1st round with a sick starting 5 including Andre Iguodala and then losing to Illinois in the Elite 8 up 15 with about 3 minutes left under Lute. It happens.

I'm not sure if you realize that the Final 4 is only 1 game further than the Elite 8. Or in other words, essentially 2 or 3 points scored more than Sean Miller has achieved in each of the losses (buzzer beater, 1,2,3 point losses except Wisconsin which was free throws to seal). Good grief. 5 Pac12 Titles, 3 Pac12 Tourney titles, 3 Elite 8s and 2 Sweet 16s is plenty good enough to not be so entitled.

You can't call UofA a blue blood just because we made some final 4s in the past. We've had some good runs. Gonzaga with Mark Few is becoming very equal to what Lute was to Arizona and thrusting a program from obscurity into a powerhouse. Sean Miller didn't allow UofA to fade into obscurity at all. He upheld the tradition. Understand the differences between blue bloods and powerhouses?


There was a ten or twelve year period when Arizona was better than any other college basketball program (won more games). We went to as many final fours in that space of time as any other program and we won a championship. We won more conference championships than anyone in our conference.... We reached that level and we were a blue blood. Literally as good or better than any other program for a sustained period of time.

Thats not Virginia is is good on a fluke for 2-3 years and gets lucky. Its not Florida who was good for 5 years and then disappeared. Its not UNLV who had one of the greatest college teams ever and then never even came close again. Our success was better than Duke. Better than Kentucky. Better than UCLA. Better than Kansas...for a decade and more. That makes us (or made us) a blue blood. By anyone's estimation. Then we slipped. Not much, but we slipped a bit. And Lute retired and now we need to regain that footing. If someone can't do it in ten years...well they are not the right person.

It wasn't a few years of success because Lute happened to have a couple of decent NBA players one or two years. HE HAD THEM EVERY SINGLE YEAR. There were no 'good runs' it was 2 decades of sustained excellence.

And again...in Miller's tenure...Kansas, Kentucky and Duke have collectively missed ONE NCAA tournament between all three programs. ONE (it was Kentucky). And yes, all of them have had losses to lower seeds - thats true. BUT THEY HAVE ALSO ALL F***ING BEEN TO MULTIPLE FINAL FOURS, WON MULTIPLE CHAMPIONSHIPS (except for Kansas) - they have all been to more Elite 8's than Miller, more sweet 16's... AND MILLER HAS CONSISTENTLY OUT RECRUITED ALL OF THEM (except Kentucky).

Miller has Ferrari. Calipari has a Lamborghini. Coach K has a Aston Martin. Bill Self has a Bugatti.
Everyone knows how to get the post out of their cars BUT MILLER DRIVES LIKE HE'S GOT A YUGO. With comparable talent...they all have MULTIPLE FINAL FOURS. SO WTF is wrong wth Miller? Or the recruiting rankings? 

I really have no idea what in game adjustments you see. Not trying to be flippant or disrespectful - Miller's substitution patterns are baffling, he sits hot players and leaves cold ones in.

He has in recent years switched out of pack line to a 2-3 zone, which we do not play well, partly because we never play it for more than 30 seconds. We have no press...he admitted that after the Florida game years ago. We make no adjustments for individual players - we just play pack line.

Never a box and one or a 1-3-1 ...nothing ever changes defensively. Substituting Smith in for Randolph to play the exact same position is not an 'adjustment' its substitution. When we play team that runs and guns...we play the pack line. When we play slow it down, pound it inside team...we play the pack line. If they have a killer inside player...we play the pack line. Great guards play...we play the pack line. THERE IS LITERALLY ALMOST NEVER A DEFENSIVE ADJUSTMENT.

We are absolutely horrible at playing from behind. Any slow team is but especially Miller's teams. We have rarely come back from ten down to beat anyone.

Gary Randazzo, who managed a site like this and wrote for it, specifically criticized Miller for his terrible in bounds plays. We are atrocious after time outs - you can find that criticism of Miller from day one.

I don't base everything on scoring plays...defense is critical...we pays D that intentionally gives up the 3 point shot - not very smart in 2019. Pack Line principals discourage gambling on steals...and it limits how much we can break, despite having players that are terrific in the open court, father, taller and stronger than anyone we play. But we waste those talents making sure they don't penetrate (which the pack line gives up almost everything to do). This is legitimate criticism. And maybe I am wrong - maybe steals like Geary and Terry got don't win games. Maybe running a more wide open offense with thoroughbred athletes is abad idea. Maybe the billions of data points now collected that show analytically that 3 point shooting is a better offensive strategy are actually wrong.  But when you start looking closely at what Miller does - it makes very little sense. He recruits tall, fast, athletic players and then does not use their height, speed or athleticism. 

Let me leave you with an example. When we played Allen Iverson's #5 ranked Georgetown team in 1995 at Madison Square Garden, they were a media darling (almost like Duke is now) and the pinnacle of east coast bias. A few years earlier, their coach, John Thompson not only left senior and national player of the year to be Sean Elliott off the Olympic team so that he could put some high school recruit of his on the team, he publicly criticized Elliott saying he was 'soft'. Lute wanted that game really bad. I heard him speak about it at a golf tournament once when seamen asked him what games had meant the most to him. This was one of them. 

Iverson is simply one of the greatest college players ever. Any metric, any standard, can't take that away. Lute decided we'd play a box and 1 - a defense we had never played before. But the one rotated and doubled on the ball for all four Georgetown players not named Iverson. Iverson was effectively, left almost unguarded. He went off...scored a career high 40 points. AZ win 91-81 and it was not nearly as close as the final score was. We dominated that game, I don't think they ever led.

This was a brilliant adjustment. Even though we had Reggie Geary, Lute chose not to run a defense that he had ever run before. He took a big risk and it payed off. THAT was an adjustment. Thats the type of thing great coaches do. Jim Boehim in the tournament a few years ago, switched out of his 2-3 and played straight man 2 man...just long enough to completely confound his opponent force a time out and send a message that whatever they had prepared for, this was not it. He literally won the mental game int he first few minutes, switched back to the 2-3 and won.

We saw Lute runs full court prsss for an entire game against Jason Kidd...Geary would pick him up as soon as he touched it and he could not initiate Cal's offense. Kidd was 1-3 against AZ. When we were not very deep on the front line and got into foul trouble, Jason Terry would run the baseline in the 1-3-1 for significant portions of the game.

Those are the type of things I want to see from any Arizona coach. Creative, effective tactics that are based on and utilize player individual abilities. And I want that not for any reason than those types of moves have proven to be winning tactics.

Loved Dick Tomey...but running up the middle on third and long 999 times out of every 1000 didn't ever fool anyone...not even once. Miller is sort of the same...run the pack line no matter who you are playing, no matter what the game situation is and no matter what players you have.

I am not frothing at the mouth here and just angry at Miller or not giving him chance...I am making salient, rational points. He literally has shown zero ability to make any significant adjustments.

This is great read if you've never seen it:
https://www.nytimes.com/1995/11/25/sports/college-basketball-aching-iverson-scores-40-but-georgetown-falls.html
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: KansasCityCats on May 24, 2019, 05:42:30 PM
Blue blood status assumes that your program has deep rooted success.

Not “almost winning” championships (by making the Final Four), but winning titles.

Arizona has earned plenty of consolation prizes under Miller’s sustained success, but similar to Lute...his lack of national titles will keep the Cats out of blue-blood territory.

If he somehow wins a couple, credit is due to Lute for building the foundation for Arizona Basketball.

Until then, we’re a solid notch below those who have a room full of “non-conference championship” trophies.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 24, 2019, 06:02:02 PM
Blue blood status assumes that your program has deep rooted success.

Not “almost winning” championships (by making the Final Four), but winning titles.

Arizona has earned plenty of consolation prizes under Miller’s sustained success, but similar to Lute...his lack of national titles will keep the Cats out of blue-blood territory.

If he somehow wins a couple, credit is due to Lute for building the foundation for Arizona Basketball.

Until then, we’re a solid notch below those who have a room full of “non-conference championship” trophies.

I agree here...although we were blue blood for two decades...as good as anyone. IMO the real difference is multiple championships (starting with multiple final fours) from multiple coaches in multiple eras. Thats why Miller wining it is so critical, IMO.

 

Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: eggdog on May 24, 2019, 06:10:03 PM
Our success was better than Duke. Better than Kentucky. Better than UCLA. Better than Kansas...for a decade and more.

This is just crazy talk but explains a lot of your view of our program. We were very, very good and won a lot of games but count up the titles each of those teams have and compare it to our one. That's not to say we can't get there but it will take years to match the level of success those programs have had.

If Miller gets to the final four or wins a championship are you even going to be able to enjoy it? You need to calm down and enjoy the success we've had and are going to have next season and beyond or go root for another school until Miller is let go. I'm pretty sure your constant belittling of him isn't going to get him fired.

And you might also check out how dirty all these other blue blood teams are before saying we're some dumpster fire because we've had a few minor violations.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: wc on May 24, 2019, 06:13:22 PM
Until then, we’re a solid notch below those who have a room full of “non-conference championship” trophies.

Bingo!  If the Pac12 is the Conference of Champions, you need more than the Conference Trophies to show for it.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 24, 2019, 10:30:07 PM
Our success was better than Duke. Better than Kentucky. Better than UCLA. Better than Kansas...for a decade and more.

This is just crazy talk but explains a lot of your view of our program. We were very, very good and won a lot of games but count up the titles each of those teams have and compare it to our one. That's not to say we can't get there but it will take years to match the level of success those programs have had.

If Miller gets to the final four or wins a championship are you even going to be able to enjoy it? You need to calm down and enjoy the success we've had and are going to have next season and beyond or go root for another school until Miller is let go. I'm pretty sure your constant belittling of him isn't going to get him fired.

And you might also check out how dirty all these other blue blood teams are before saying we're some dumpster fire because we've had a few minor violations.

You are wrong about this... When we played Duke in 2001 Coach K had 2 national championships. Had the officiating been fair, Lute would have had 2 also. Even playing field.

There was an old Sunday column from Hansen years ago, about Lute. Over a 10 or 12 year period had the best winning percentage of any division 1 college coach. We played as tough a schedule as anyone in most years. And no coach had more final fours than Olson in that period of time.

Now, I fully grant you that we did not have a Fog Allen or Adolph Rupp. I know Duke won championships in the 50's and 60's... And although I think Coach K IS actually that great, I still think Wooden is untouchable.... so yes... I know that other schools have much deeper traditions. I am not suggesting otherwise.

What we need now is a coach who can go toe to toe with those programs and elevate Arizona....Miller aint it. 8th pace in the PAC12. Missed 30% of the NCAA tournaments since he's been here. Lost to Bucknell (RPI 5,891) at home in the NIT...any one of those things should get ANY Arizona coach fired, but we have no standards anymore.

 


Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Teamgame on May 25, 2019, 05:41:34 AM
Yawn! Who cares what you think.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: jumpinjohnny on May 25, 2019, 08:07:13 AM
Until then, we’re a solid notch below those who have a room full of “non-conference championship” trophies.

Bingo!  If the Pac12 is the Conference of Champions, you need more than the Conference Trophies to show for it.

Linear thinking--I'm a fan.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: eggdog on May 25, 2019, 11:09:43 AM
What we need now is a coach who can go toe to toe with those programs and elevate Arizona....Miller aint it. 8th pace in the PAC12. Missed 30% of the NCAA tournaments since he's been here. Lost to Bucknell (RPI 5,891) at home in the NIT...any one of those things should get ANY Arizona coach fired, but we have no standards anymore.

We missed the tourney in two of Miller's first three years with an Elite 8 appearance sandwiched in between. No one expected Miller to get us back on track so quickly after the messy way Lute went out, not to mention the recruiting limits we were under because of the violations that occurred. Last season we missed out because of the ESPN report. And no one in Tucson gave a shit about the NIT and the only reason we played in that tourney was for Fogg but the players didn't come to Arizona to win an NIT championship. Josiah Turner and Sidiki Johnson being total busts also didn't help that season.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: ichi on May 25, 2019, 11:51:07 AM
its all a matter of perspective, some folks want to validate their anger by focusing on the outliers that lend support to their worldview

its the difference between lawyers and doctors.  A lawyer will find every bit of information that supports his case and vigorously deny anything that disagrees, while the doctor reviews the entire body of evidence and lets the facts dictate the conclusion.

we're fine, we'll be even finer

we finished 8th the year after we sent our starters to the pros and the contrived scandal hurt our recruiting, we've finished first and second (tied for first but lost tiebreaker) and we will not finish 8th again

some see the glass as almost full, others see a swirling cauldron of corruption and failure, I see a program weathering tremendous adversity with a bit of style, makes me proud

some people see ostriches with their head under sand, others see a bunch of fans supporting their team and their coach

Quote
“In the eyes of a thorn, the world looks like a thorn.
In the eyes of a flower, the world looks like a flower.” (From Phoolko Ankaama)

so Bear Down my peoples, and pray for threads that aren't hijacked by the FUD campaign, maybe we can have some good discussions over the summer without the constantly repeated negativity



Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 25, 2019, 02:13:33 PM
its all a matter of perspective, some folks want to validate their anger by focusing on the outliers that lend support to their worldview

its the difference between lawyers and doctors.  A lawyer will find every bit of information that supports his case and vigorously deny anything that disagrees, while the doctor reviews the entire body of evidence and lets the facts dictate the conclusion.

we're fine, we'll be even finer

we finished 8th the year after we sent our starters to the pros and the contrived scandal hurt our recruiting, we've finished first and second (tied for first but lost tiebreaker) and we will not finish 8th again

some see the glass as almost full, others see a swirling cauldron of corruption and failure, I see a program weathering tremendous adversity with a bit of style, makes me proud

some people see ostriches with their head under sand, others see a bunch of fans supporting their team and their coach

Quote
“In the eyes of a thorn, the world looks like a thorn.
In the eyes of a flower, the world looks like a flower.” (From Phoolko Ankaama)

so Bear Down my peoples, and pray for threads that aren't hijacked by the FUD campaign, maybe we can have some good discussions over the summer without the constantly repeated negativity

Facts clearly do not matter to any of the doctors here. They have a patient presenting with stage 4 cancer throughout its body and are giving him a clean bill of health.
 
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: eggdog on May 25, 2019, 02:52:23 PM
I have always said that Miller handled the transition brilliantly and following legend is not easy.

What we need now is a coach who can go toe to toe with those programs and elevate Arizona....Miller aint it. 8th pace in the PAC12. Missed 30% of the NCAA tournaments since he's been here. Lost to Bucknell (RPI 5,891) at home in the NIT...any one of those things should get ANY Arizona coach fired, but we have no standards anymore.

So did Miller handle the transition brilliantly or should he have been fired for missing the tourney in two of his first three years and losing to Bucknell? You seem to be contradicting yourself with these quotes.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: ichi on May 25, 2019, 03:25:39 PM
So did Miller handle the transition brilliantly or should he have been fired for missing the tourney in two of his first three years and losing to Bucknell? You seem to be contradicting yourself with these quotes.

he's irrelevant mate, he's got nothing but to overexaggerate

I've seen stage 4 cancer, in my dad, anyone who would compare the men's basketball program or CSM to cancer is clearly on a mission of hate

its a shame because if no one replies then his bullshit goes uncontested, but if anyone replies then he has an audience and an opportunity to double down, just gives him a platform to spew

cancer
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: eggdog on May 25, 2019, 03:48:30 PM
Damn sorry to hear that ichi. In the end basketball is just a game - hope you're doing alright.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Teamgame on May 25, 2019, 04:06:20 PM
Liquidated Is a really angry person and puts way to much effort and energy into spewing hateful comments. Fans like him have a singular mission to spread hate and discontent. Don’t feed the troll and simply ignore him. If he is afforded an avenue to spew his negativity, he wins.                                                                                      The other members on PPU are awesome and one bad apple shouldn’t ruin it for others. Bear Down 🐻
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Teamgame on May 25, 2019, 04:07:16 PM
I chi- sorry to hear about your dad!
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: ichi on May 25, 2019, 04:10:15 PM
Damn sorry to hear that ichi. In the end basketball is just a game - hope you're doing alright.

its all good, it was hard to see him waste away, but he took the opportunity to show me how to handle a bad deal in the best way

thanks for kind words, I feel bad about bringing it up in here, I should follow my own advice and ignore stupid stuff
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: WILDcatAZfan on May 25, 2019, 04:44:07 PM
Sorry to hear about your dad ichi. Thoughts and prayers going to you and your family.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: WILDcatAZfan on May 25, 2019, 04:54:27 PM
I actually just got news that my father has prostate cancer. Still in shock.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: ichi on May 25, 2019, 05:03:41 PM
I actually just got news that my father has prostate cancer. Still in shock.


best wishes mate, and thanks
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Jdmarti on May 26, 2019, 02:00:56 AM
Best of luck to both of you an your family's
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Jdmarti on May 26, 2019, 02:05:29 AM
Not take the attention away from your situations but my dad has had prostate cancer for lots  years an has battled it an had different treatment.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Jdmarti on May 26, 2019, 02:08:21 AM
I guess what I am saying is I understand how that fills.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: ollieboy5150 on May 26, 2019, 06:54:40 AM
Bear Down guys.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: ichi on May 26, 2019, 08:10:07 AM
I guess what I am saying is I understand how that fills.

I'm sure there's lots of guys in here who understand, best wishes for your dad
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: wc on May 26, 2019, 08:58:02 AM
Sorry to hear that about your Dad WILD.  Hopefully someday there will be a breakthrough so no one has to go threw that disease again.  Fingers crossed your Dad beats the hell out it.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 26, 2019, 09:20:42 AM

So did Miller handle the transition brilliantly or should he have been fired for missing the tourney in two of his first three years and losing to Bucknell? You seem to be contradicting yourself with these quotes.

The transition I refer to is how he (and Lute) both handled it. Miller is in tough position and never once made a misstep, embraced former players, etc. Lute never said anything either and did not try to keep an office at McKale or stuff coaches like that often do. Both men handled it really well.   

His performance on the court is an entirely different subject.

 
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: Liquidated on May 26, 2019, 09:30:38 AM
My sincere apologies to those affected by cancer or any wasting disease.  My sister has stage four cancer right now, which is why it is on my mind.

Ichi - I am also sorry to hear about your father and anyone who is suffering.

At a young age I have lost both parents, my brother, a sister and a girlfriend. I understand wasting diseases (ALS, Cancer) and watching helplessly as people die. I would not wish that on anyone.

Apologies again.
Title: Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
Post by: ichi on May 26, 2019, 10:35:00 AM
My sincere apologies to those affected by cancer or any wasting disease.  My sister has stage four cancer right now, which is why it is on my mind.

Ichi - I am also sorry to hear about your father and anyone who is suffering.

At a young age I have lost both parents, my brother, a sister and a girlfriend. I understand wasting diseases (ALS, Cancer) and watching helplessly as people die. I would not wish that on anyone.

Apologies again.

its all good man, wishing the best for you and your sister