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Author Topic: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches  (Read 2998 times)

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Offline Jdmarti

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2019, 05:30:27 PM »
I think one of the problems with both guys in college neither one them defended the way they needed to I think Sean kept pushing kobi to defend better an he seemed like he was not responding an when Trier came back he lost alot of minutes   to Trier who was not much better on defense but Sean seemed to trust Trier more than kobi an Trier was a better offensive player.

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2019, 11:49:39 AM »
Agree that Neither should have ever come to Arizona.

BUT THE ISSUE IS NOT THE PLAYERS.

When you have thoroughbreds, as both trier and Simmons are - you don't use them to plough fields. We play the pack line D - designed specifically to slow the game down, not utilize speed, height or ability. Any great basketball player by definition, is playing out of position (or, at least, 3 decades out of time) when they are forced to play the pack line D.

Have no idea why any good players would ever come to a program that runs pack line D.

The notion that Simmons was buried in a talent pool is silly. Simmons is, after Ayton and Markannen the third or fourth best pure BB talent Miller has recruited. Gordon is the only other that even comes close. He was better than everyone but Markannen on the team and better than Markannen after Miller moved Lauri 'inside'. Miller sat Kobi for the last 1/3rd and yet he remained positive, cheered on his team mates and took the high road.  Simmons was wasted and abused by Miller.

Trier needs a running, wide open offense...he would have had huge averages in a Lute type system or a Calipari, Roy Williams, Bill Self type system.

AZ players are held back by the low scoring, brain dead D, lack of true PG's to distribute the ball (other than TJ) and coach who makes capricious, baffling personnel decisions.


 
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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2019, 12:33:09 PM »
Remind me of how many players wildly exceeded Trierís average of 16.8ppg in 3 years under Luteís system.

Regardless of the defensive scheme, our offense was built for perimeter players to flourish.

Kobi showed no effort on the court and Zo was given every opportunity to showcase his talents in front of plenty of scouts. If he wasnít drafted, that was a result of selfishness...not coaching.

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2019, 09:52:47 PM »
Quote
Remind me of how many players wildly exceeded Trierís average of 16.8ppg in 3 years under Luteís system.

I'm going to respond now and then go look it up. My media guides are packed (moving) but I can do it the old fashioned way (on-line). But I bet we had at least 15 and probably 20 or 25 that hit a 16 ppg average. Will go find out. Remember we used to routinely crack 100, often finished in the 90's and almost always got to at least 80.

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Regardless of the defensive scheme, our offense was built for perimeter players to flourish.

Defensive scheme means everything to modern BB offense.

1. You literally can't run much if you play pack line, defense changes everything. It is true of any defense; how you play defense always impacts offense, good, bad or indifferent.

2. Markannen is the only outside player of the entire Miller era that 'flourished' until he got moved out of position and completely mind-F***ed by Miller, when he was on pace to set an NCAA 3 pt % record. Otherwise AZ has been a pound it inside team. We did it with everyone from Williams to Jeter...and the kick out is almost non existent with Miller. Zeus was four years of pass-the-ball-to-the-big-guy-who-can't-F***ing-catch. It was some seriously fugly BB.

That's the Irony - Miller was guard but apparently does not appreciate guard play.

 
Quote
Kobi showed no effort on the court


Ridiculus.

In his first college game ever, where he was asked to step in for a star player ineligible because of PED's - he scored 18 points and had an assist against #12 Michigan state.

Of 26 games in which he played 20 minutes or more he score in double figures 19 times. 

@ #3 UCLA (who was on fire that year) Simmons posted one of the best stat lines of any game by any Miller player ever and Trier had returned at that point. He had 20 points, 5 assists, 2 steals and 6 rebounds. He was not even a starter in that game. 

When he was (effectively) benched after the breakout game at UCLA
He led the team in steals, he was the best rebounding guard we had, and he had the second best A:TO on the team. Not playing the last third of the season killed his over all stats, but had he simply kept doing what he did, he would have been our second best player that year to Markannen (who also got shafted for the last 1/3rd of the season).

"No effort" - seriously dude, look at the game logs. "Effortless" - yes he made it look easy. That because he was a natural, pure BB talent. Just needed a coach who knew how to use him better.

Simmons did not shoot well - he was not very efficient, but given everything else he did exceptionally well, that can be worked with.

Quote
and Zo was given every opportunity to showcase his talents in front of plenty of scouts. If he wasnít drafted, that was a result of selfishness...not coaching.

No, it is the result of the system (an maybe him cheating)...the constant substitutions that ignores hot or cold players, the lack of a transition game, the low scores, the inability to play from behind or have any other tricks up your sleeve...I bet there were not 2 guards in all of the NBA draft who had fewer shot attempts than Trier per game and we thought he was a ball hog... unless Wisconsin or NC State or Virginia or whatever hell hole Sendeck coaches in now, was sending guards to the NBA (laughable) Trier was likely the most stifled, limited, and retartrded in development.  Remember he was a for sure one and done...you know like Zeus and Ashley and Jarrett and all of those other 5 stars that Miller ruined and who all needed up not drafted.
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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2019, 06:28:20 AM »
Markkanen took 4.4 3PA per game.  Trier took 4.8/game.  The next highest was Rawle at 3.2/game.  Don't tell me that Lauri was "out of position".  On defense, he was forced to guard bigs...but he was ALWAYS on the perimeter on the offensive side of the ball. 

The fact that Kobi "shot poorly" but put up "double digits in 19 of 20 games" indicates that he was selfish.  That has nothing to do with effort...just the amount of shots that you put up...which eventually lands you on the bench.  He was the ONLY player to shoot less than 40% from the field and only averaged 2 assists in 23.5 minutes per game. 

That's the trend of a kid that wants to make the league...not win NCAA games.  Throw in the fact that he was a below-average defender, and there's no question that he deserved to pout from the sidelines.

BTW, there are only two occasions since the 1995-96 season that an Arizona player eclipsed 20 PPG: Terry & Gardner (once each).  Trier's 16.8 PPG with a "pack-line D" proves that Miller gave him the green light.  Zo didn't take advantage of the situation because the scouts obviously didn't think he was good enough to deserve a high draft pick.  (Glad he proved them wrong).

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2019, 10:55:18 AM »
16ppg by players recruited and coached by Lute:

1985 Eddie Smith 16.1
1987 Sean Elliott 19.3
1988 Sean Elliott 19.8
1989 Sean Elliott 22.3
1989 Anthony Cook 17.5
1992 Sean Rooks 16.3
1992 Chris Mills 16.3
1993 Chris Mills 20.4
1994 Khalid Reeves 24.2
1994 Damon Stoudamire 18.5
1995 Damon Stoudamire 22.8
1997 Michael Dickerson 18.9
1998 Micheal Dickerson 18.0
1998 Mike Bibby 17.2
1998 Miles Simon 17.2
1999 Jason Terry 21.9
2001 Gilbert Arenas 16.2
2002 Jason Gardner 20.4
2004 Hassan Adams 17.2
2004 Salim Stoudmaire 16.3
2005 Salim Stoudmaie 18.4
2006 Hassan Adams 17.5
2007 Marcus Williams 16.6
2008 Jeryd Bayless 19.7
2008 Chase Budinger 17.1
2009 Chase Budinger 18.0
2009 Jordan Hill 18.3

27 times a player averaged 16ppg or more - exceeding the high end of my estimate.

Technically - the mark is 16.8ppg.  21 times a player had over 16.8ppg. Almost dead center of my prediction of between 15 and 25.

UNDER MILLER players over 16ppg:

2011 Derrick Williams 19.5
2014 Nick Johnson 16.3
2017 Alonzo Trier 17.2
2018 Deandre Ayton 20.1
2018 Alonzo Trier 18.1

5 players in 10 years. Lute had 27 in 24 years. More than twice as many per year.

BTW - Trier never averaged 16.8ppg in any season. His frosh year was 14.8. Where did you get that 16.8 number?

https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/allonzo-trier-1.html

 






 
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Offline Bear

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2019, 11:20:50 AM »
Throwing a different perspective into the mix here.

I like Kobi. He came into a team and did the best he could and won us some games while Trier was out. He became part of the team identity. Both everyone knows Trier was better than a freshman Kobi. I didnít want Trier to start when he came back and wanted him to come off the bench. Still think he should have. I donít think his late arrival made the starting squad better. He should have been 6th man to finish the season.

 Either way, Trier needs to be ball dominant to be effective. Itís his game. The numbers for the rest of squad were going to go down no matter whether he started or came off the bench. Kobi saw the worst of it. Lauri got hit too.

Lauriís game didnít suffer because he was on the inside. His game was already trending down. He needed to mix it up and get some easy buckets and make defenses adjust. He isnít a 2 guard. He canít just sit outside in the corner all game. I do think Lauri adjusted to playing with Kobi though and Trier coming back affected flow late in the season making it less than ideal to have Trier starting.

Trier absolutely played out of position. Because he canít keep a guard in front of him so he had to be our 3. He couldnít stop those either but it was as good as compromise as could be had. He also had to feed Ayton. So in that sense he was held back. Better for the team but not necessarily better for his mini Harden game (less the assists). As much green light as Trier had early season, there came a time where he started passing the ball more and wasnít as aggressive. You have to think Miller told him to pass instead of driving into 3 defenders. Happens to most players every year as conference play tightens up. Trier let it roll off his back and got his assist rate up. Randolph went MIA.

No kid has ultimate green light under Miller and none should. I am not the fondest of Trier because his game isnít conducive to college team play but the kid did learn to pass the ball at the end and earned an NBA contract. Hopefully Kobi gets there too.

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2019, 11:35:02 AM »
Trier's 16.8 PPG were his average over 3 seasons.  He put up 18.1 as a Junior, which would rank him as the 9th highest individual scorer during Lute's "coaching" era (not including Pennell/O'Neill's teams).

Miller has produced 7 first-round draft picks in 10 years at Arizona.  I believe Lute had 12 over a 25 year coaching career in Tucson.  Miller is not holding-back talent...especially considering the likelihood of 2+ more 1st rounders going after next season.

Offline Jav

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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2019, 03:09:48 PM »
Miller runs a slower system and has more emphasis on offensive and defensive efficiency than total points.  You can argue the merits of the systems all you want, but comparing total PPG isn't a good barometer.  Points per possession is probably a better comparison, but I'm not sure what point is trying to be made anyway. 

Remember when people used to bitch about Olson's teams being too soft.  That they couldn't do well in the tournament where the refs let teams be physical?  Now we get to hear how Sean's teams are too big and don't play fast enough to win  ;D


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Re: Trier & Simmons make comments on twitter about college coaches
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2019, 09:57:07 AM »
Throwing a different perspective into the mix here.

I like Kobi. He came into a team and did the best he could and won us some games while Trier was out. He became part of the team identity. Both everyone knows Trier was better than a freshman Kobi. I didnít want Trier to start when he came back and wanted him to come off the bench. Still think he should have. I donít think his late arrival made the starting squad better. He should have been 6th man to finish the season.

 Either way, Trier needs to be ball dominant to be effective. Itís his game. The numbers for the rest of squad were going to go down no matter whether he started or came off the bench. Kobi saw the worst of it. Lauri got hit too.

Lauriís game didnít suffer because he was on the inside. His game was already trending down. He needed to mix it up and get some easy buckets and make defenses adjust. He isnít a 2 guard. He canít just sit outside in the corner all game. I do think Lauri adjusted to playing with Kobi though and Trier coming back affected flow late in the season making it less than ideal to have Trier starting.

Trier absolutely played out of position. Because he canít keep a guard in front of him so he had to be our 3. He couldnít stop those either but it was as good as compromise as could be had. He also had to feed Ayton. So in that sense he was held back. Better for the team but not necessarily better for his mini Harden game (less the assists). As much green light as Trier had early season, there came a time where he started passing the ball more and wasnít as aggressive. You have to think Miller told him to pass instead of driving into 3 defenders. Happens to most players every year as conference play tightens up. Trier let it roll off his back and got his assist rate up. Randolph went MIA.

No kid has ultimate green light under Miller and none should. I am not the fondest of Trier because his game isnít conducive to college team play but the kid did learn to pass the ball at the end and earned an NBA contract. Hopefully Kobi gets there too.

Great post Bear. Agree wth out everything....except:

Quote
He canít just sit outside in the corner all game.

Why not?

Have you seen the Bulls play? Lauri is their 7'0" starting power forward. In 2 years he has 733 3PA and a 36% career 3P%. He has 716 FGA and 43% career FG%. How many power forwards in the NBA have fewer FGA than 3PA?

We also had Ristic, Comanche and Pinder - all better inside players than Lauri.

I forget the exact percentage but when Miller made the announcement that he was 'moving Lauri inside' Lauri was shooting some ridiculous % from 3 point range, like .584 or something, might have even been higher. I believe that coaches have to push players out of comfort zones to make them better sometimes, but if a player is shooting .584 from anywhere but the free throw line, you do to correct his mechanics, change his position or offensive scheme of the team....you simply tell every one else to pass him the damn ball. 

IMO, the damage was psychological. We saw Lauri start that stupid, idiotic hedge Miller has his big men do on defense and on offense he seemed confused by his role, never quite sure if he should shoot or not. It destroyed him. 
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