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Offline BDMT

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« on: March 15, 2019, 04:34:56 PM »
Looks like Miller is putting an emphasis on the Point Guard spot. He started doing it last year before FBI/ ESPN happened. I never could understand why he didnít really do that in the past. TJ turned out awesome as a transfer.
I also think we should not go with a pg under 6ft from here on out.

Offline Bear

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Re: PG
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2019, 05:00:42 PM »
I always got the impression that Miller consistently worked at getting great guards but for one reason or another they didnít pan out. More scoring guards or combo guards though than pure point guards. With the abundance of talented kids over 6ft, itís hard to see why shorter guards are desirable. At least not as the primary point guard. Unless you are looking at a Markus Howard type. 

Offline BDMT

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Re: PG
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2019, 05:15:29 PM »
Unless itís Damon Stoudemire, Jason Gardner or Nate Robinson I say stay away. No more little PGís unless you got one 6ft or over also.

Offline Liquidated

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Re: PG
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2019, 11:30:32 AM »
As much as I want to blame Miller for everything - when it comes to PG's - he has just had some really rotten luck.

(247 national rankings - stats are for their AZ careers only)

2009 - Momo Jones - #10 PG, #83 overall
Started 2009/10 & 2010/11
1.23 A:TO
2.1 Apg
8.3 Ppg
.265 3 PT%
Plays 2 years at AZ and transfers to Iona to be closer to family. Although I recall him as solid player, his numbers are terrible for a PG Especially A:TO ratio and 3pt%.

2010 - Jordin Mayes - #29 Combo Guard  #119 overall

2011 - Josiah Turner - #3 PG, #11 overall
Started 2011/12
1.14 A:TO
2.4 Apg
6.8 Ppg
.226 3 PT%

1 year at AZ. Turner was 2011's version of Mannion. The reports were glowing....the Bleacher Report article below calls him the #5 of the top ten busts of a DECADE (Grant Jarrett is #10). Painful read. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2544114-ranking-college-basketballs-biggest-5-star-busts-of-the-past-decade#slide17

Turner and MoMo gave us three years of extremely low assist numbers for the PG, extremely poor A:TO ratio and incredibly bad 3 point shooting. MoMo became a major scorer (19 Ppg) at Iona and Turner left for basketball oblivion. Both should have been significantly better at AZ. 

2012 (TRANSFER) - Mark Lyons 
Started 2012/13
1.03 A:TO
2.8 Apg
15.6 Ppg
.333 3 PT%

There had to be a point in the 2012 season where Miller thought to himself..."what do I have to do?" In his fourth year the A:TO ratio for his starting point guard went down...from dismal to horrendous. Lyons, was, at least, a better scorer.
2013 (TRANSFER) - TJ McConnell
Started 2013/14, 2014/15
3.05 A:TO
5.8 Apg
9.4 Ppg
.343 3 PT%

Literally the only AZ good PG of the Miller era (so far) - his stats are that of an elite PG and he was loaded with intangibles and high BB IQ. Although his numbers were better at Duquesne, that is likely due to the respective systems and competition.

2014 - Parker Jackson Cartwright #12 PG, #50 overall
Started 2015/16(split starting PG with Allen), 2016/17, 2017/18
3.15 A:TO (as a starter, JR & SR)
4.3 Apg
5.5 Ppg
.406 3 PT%

Statistically, Miller's BEST PG. He WAS/IS too short....but honestly I have to say that TJ is the only better PG we have had. He started on two of the worst chemistry teams at AZ ever... the pieces its did not fit together well on the court for a few years there. Selfish Trier, total bust Zues, Graduate transfer Anderson, misfit York, bewildered Tollefson, euroball Ristic... that was a very weird mix of players without skills that complemented each other especially well. The Pitts/Mason issue split the team in the locker room. Followed by the bizarre Markkanen/Simmons season. I don't think his height was more than 20% of the issue - replace MoMo Jones early on with PJC and bet we get a final four out of that team.

2014 (JC) - Kadeem Allen #1 JC Combo Guard #2 JC player overall.
Started 2015/16 (split starting PG with PJC)
1.65 A:TO
3.3 Apg
9.1 Ppg
.400 3 PT%

Back to the poor A:TO ratio and Allen in JC was the nations leading scorer but that was only worth 9 Ppg at AZ...

2015 - Justin Simon #8 PG, #23 overall
0.5 A:TO
0.3 Apg
2.3 Ppg
.333 3 PT%

A 6'5" PG who could not beat PJC out. By all counts he was a major sleeper in that recruiting class and many thought he would excel in college. He did. At St Johns. 4.5 Apg, 3.65 A:TO ration, 11 points per game. .351 3PT%...Would have been interesting to have him develop and play 4 years here. Because he sat out a year, he has year left.

2016 - Kobi Simmons #3 Combo Guard, #26 overall
Never started at PG - but is probably the third best PG after TJ and PJC.
In extremely limited minutes:
1.66 A:TO
2.1 Apg
8.7 Ppg
.327 3 PT%

PER, BIRD and per minute, Simmons is one of the best players Miller has had. He peaked @ #3 UCLA which was on a tear that year, scoring 20 points, 5 assists, 2 steals, 6 rebounds...the notion he was lazy on defense is B.S. - he was, after Markkanen, the best player on the floor and it was not even close. He actually played more efficiently after Trier came back and for 5-6 games they played together, often on the floor at the same time. Then Miller benched him with no public explanation. He was a positive, smiling and supportive teammate on the bench, if he had an attitude problem, it never showed during game. When he left he said great things and continues to be supportive of AZ...IMO, Simmons is the best pure talent and has the most upside of any player Miller has recruited not named Derrick, DeAndre, Aaron or Lauri. I would rate him somewhere with Stanimal and RHJ - he just needed to develop and he picked the wrong program.   
2017 - Alex Barcello #17 PG, #83 overall
Never started at PG
1.75 A:TO
0.7 Apg
2.9 Ppg
.297 3 PT%

1/2 way through his eligibility...Barcello is not even remotely good. Along with Turner - a total bust. Given the recruiting and timing, he was clearly Miller's choice for a long term, starting PG. Not blaming Miller, but damn...rotten luck. He has two years left...maybe he will emerge as a more viable back up and judging assists with this past years team... brutal. I doubt John Stockton could get many assists on this past years team.

2018 - Brandon Wiliams #8 PG, #34 overall

1.83 A:TO
3.3 Apg
11.4 Ppg
.316 3 PT%

2018 (TRANSFER) Justin Coleman

1.80 A:TO
3.8 Apg
8.9 Ppg
.360 3 PT%

Miller said it seemed like he'd been here for four years. Yes..four long, miserable, drive the lane and get stuffed 10 times per game, years.  A calm steady player...nowhere near good enough to be the starting PG at AZ... he was by default because we had no one else. That is not because of Schlabach, that's because Simon transferred and Barcelo busted.

2018 - Brandon Wiliams #8 PG, #34 overall
Started at the 2 guard mostly - not really a PG.
1.83 A:TO
3.3 Apg
11.4 Ppg
.316 3 PT%

OK...these are number that a freshmen should have - a freshmen who will stick around 3 or 4 years to develop. Of course, that will never happen. But these are not AZ starting PG good numbers. I do not see what others seem to in Williams. He does not seem especially athletic, he's not really quick or fast, he cannot/does not drive, no one the entire team finishes strong but he's one of the worst, he does not shoot especially well and does not really create his own shot. He's not a pure PG, not a great floor general, not good in transition (although no player in Miller's system ever is). He reminds me of Allen - he seems to be more of a combo guard and thats not a bad thing, just yet another player who is not a pure PG and cannot lead the team. There is a reason PJC and TJ were the best PG's of Millers tenure...they are the only two who really fit the basic description.

2019 - Nico Mannion #1 PG, #10 overall
Yes, I get it, he is finally the point guard that Miller wanted all along. Never mind we said the same thing about every PG recruit from MoMo to Williams and TJ (who no one knew what to expect from and who did not get that type of praise) is maybe the only one who actually was.

I am bothered by the fact that his senior year highlight tape did not include 1 single assist. Not one. Lots of dunks...which won't happen much in the pac12 and lots of mid range jumpers - which is now a shot for losing teams in basketball (see: advanced analytics, golden state warriors, current basketball theory). Seriously what idiot makes highlight tape of a point guard and puts in zero assists but 75% dunks? 

Some of these issues are on Miller (Simmons and not changing his ideas with the times) but (and I hate to admit it) most of these PG issues seem well outside of his control. He needs to stabilize the PG position - it is foundational for any program. 

Hopefully Mannion turns Miller's luck around at the PG spot...but if he is that good, he's here for only 1 year. If he's not, he'll playing behind Williams and Barcello and we're right back in the same situation we are in now. 

Online wc

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Re: PG
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2019, 11:58:01 AM »
Nice breakdown Liquidated, I like reading this type of post..  I appreciate giving credit to PJC, I felt like he took a lot of heat last year, that was not necessarily deserving.  I don't see eye to eye with you on Williams, but time will tell.  To go as many games as he did without a turnover was impressive, but the knee issue has me concerned.  The Kobi Simmons situation will always make me go, hmmmm?

Offline Teamgame

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Re: PG
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2019, 12:43:10 PM »
Nice work Liquidated. This has been the weakest part of the program over the last 10 years. Without a high level PG its very difficult to win in the NCAA turny.

Offline eggdog

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Re: PG
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2019, 02:26:51 PM »
Sad to think we could've had Kobi and Justin Simon if they hadn't left the program but hopefully Mannion & Williams (and Barcello if he can find his shot) can get us back on track. I think Kobi knew he was only here for one year regardless of how his season went but there was a lot of potential if he would have stayed and worked on his game. But the same reasons he lost playing time are the same reasons he's not in the league now. Here's a note on his nba scouting report which also has videos showing his breakdowns:
While neither Simmons nor Miller have publicly given an explicit reason for the late-season benchings, the freshmanís play throughout the season could be labeled as wildly inconsistent. When game film so often showed instances of Simmons making a magnificent play, only to nullify it with a blunder just seconds later, the whole situation suddenly made much more sense.

If Kobi had the patience Jason Terry did I think he would have taken over the starting spot and had a better chance at the NBA.
I wish that I could be more like Dickie V, but I'm just not willing to cut off half my dick and tape it to my forehead - ichi


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