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Author Topic: Argument on Sean Miller's player development  (Read 988 times)

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Offline 2012Cat

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Re: Argument on Sean Miller's player development
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2019, 10:12:58 AM »
I agree that Miller gets a bad rep for not developing. I think if you look at Solomon hill, Kadeem Allen, TJ, Kyle Fogg, Gabe York etc he actually does a good job with guys that stick around.
 

I think this is an interesting and serious issue and despite the dismissal out of hand and with zero facts or examples from others...you at least tried.

But then you said Gabe York....if there was ever a player that did not develop as he should have, it was York.

Kadeem Allen led the nation in scoring as junior college player. Miller (apparently) told him not to shoot....

I honestly believe that Miller could take any player, play him for years and fans here would use that player as assigning example of Millers excellence as a coach...with zero meaningful improvement, zero final fours, zero NBA minutes - this is exactly who Gabe York was for us. He was not AZ good when he got here and he was not AZ good when he left..proven by the lack of final fours, lack of any records set, lack of an NBA career....

I disagree. York was not as good as his recruiting ranking stated. He was a complete liability freshman and sophomore year, gave good minutes junior year, and was a key player as a senior. Not everyone needs to be a superstar and not everyone is capable of it. A college coach has to create role players and develop their skills to find success. Look at ira Lee for example. Heís not an NBA player but he did improve this year and Iím hoping by senior year heís a key player.

Kadeem absolutely improved in his 2 years in AZ . Scoring in HS or JUCO is not the same as D1, so I donít buy that argument. He became an elite defender in his 2 years, I credit that to the Arizona coaching staff.

And to say someone is not ďArizonaĒ good because they didnít make a final four is just plain wrong. That means everyone since the 2001 team wasnít Arizona good? So iggy, Frye, dwill, Ayton, etc werenít any good?

Offline eggdog

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Re: Argument on Sean Miller's player development
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2019, 10:24:31 AM »
I wasn't a huge York fan but he did tie the McKale record with 9 threes in his last game, if that counts as a record, and while he hasn't played in the NBA he signed with the Magic. He's been in the G League and has been getting paid to play since he left Arizona. That's not bad for the 62nd rated player coming out of high school, especially an undersized 2 guard. I wish he'd been less selfish and learned to play the point guard spot where he would have helped himself at the next level, the way Kadeem learned to play D and earned himself a shot in the league. I do remember York taking some ridiculous drives to the basket with terrible results, but he improved greatly as a shooter. I'm hoping Barcello sticks around and he can fill a similar role that York did because you can never have enough shooters.

Online Liquidated

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Re: Argument on Sean Miller's player development
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2019, 10:40:51 AM »
Gabe York went from only playing in 15 games his freshman year, averaging 2.4 points per game, to earning 2nd team all conference and averaging nearly 15 points his senior season and his 3 point percentage went from .348 to .414 - you're clearly delusional if you don't see that as improvement. Kadeem Allen went from a scorer in junior college to one of the top defenders in the country at Arizona which earned him a shot in the NBA. I'm not sure what you consider improvement - not every player is going to be an NBA All Star when they graduate and some players ceilings are lower than others.

Odd how virtually every single guard that started for Lute over a 20 period was an NBA draft pick... that is what I mean by AZ good.

Option A - Recruit AZ good players from top to bottom in every class. Yes, some will fall out, quit, transfer etc... but when you run out of OND's then you need to recruit the RHJ's and Kobi Simmons of the world not the Brandon Randolphs and Justin Simons. Miller has had had far too may guys like Smith and not enough AZ good players.   

Option B - the 'Project'
If you take a kid who is project (say, a Pinder type...) then you have to expect that some might break through, but some will just be good role players. There were almost always a couple of those guys around. A Casey Schmidt or a Kevin Flannigan... and occasionally a guy like that, a Jesse Perry or a Joe McLean real through and give real minutes and real contributions. Gabe York may have been rated higher then Casey Schmidt, but by AZ standards he was a project. I am not saying he did not improve at all, but his incremental improvement was not nearly enough to merit an AZ scholarship. He would have had the same career at Oregon State or UNLV... 

And I am not picking on York. Miller has consistently recruited players with very limited up side and as that become apparent we tend to forgive... Well Justin Simon wasn't;t happy os he transferred. and Dylan Smith is chronically injured and Alex Barcelo has now played 1/2 of his career and has not had single game anyone ecxpected based on his recruiting rankings...thats all understandable - its a crap shoot...etc etc.... EXCEPT IT IS NEARLY EVERY SINGLE PLAYER. Williams is not anywhere near what he should be based on recruiting rankings (he was supposed to be the next OND, right?), neither is Barcello, Randolph or Smith.

Ira Lee is project - not AZ good. Thats OK if he's your 8th man. Think Gene Edgerson - very important guy. But Miller is dependent on him as a starter.

Last minute transfers, Coleman and Luther...in what universe would either of these guys ever started for Lute? Like both of them...again as the 8th, 9th, 10th guy off the bench.

So had Schlabach not earthen the article...Quinerly and O'Neill would have contributed, right? Nope. Quinerly had a miserable year and is not 'stuck' behind anyone, Villanova's guard roster was wide open for someone good to come in and play. But the fact is he is not good. O'Neill has heart condition. Did not play 1 minute.

SO had both of those guys come to AZ still...the results would have bene the same.

MILLER'S ENTIRE TEAM THIS YEAR WERE RECRUITING BUSTS AND/OR NOT AZ GOOD PLAYERS (other than Jeter and maybe Doutrive). That is a recruiting and planning issue. Thats a poor evaluator of talent issue. That is a poor developer of talent issue. It caught up to us in a big, big way.



 

 
 


Online Liquidated

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Re: Argument on Sean Miller's player development
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2019, 10:50:50 AM »
 
And to say someone is not ďArizonaĒ good because they didnít make a final four is just plain wrong. That means everyone since the 2001 team wasnít Arizona good? So iggy, Frye, dwill, Ayton, etc werenít any good?

I think that is one dimension...not the only one and I think that applies not to guys who would be OND's now. Look at the Lute guys you named...those teams played and beat final four teams and national champions...becaue of the players around them.  They were competitive with anybody. We went to Kansas and beat them. To Michigan state and beat them. We played Florida and UConn and Duke and Kentucky and just about every top ten top twenty program you can name in tournaments or on neutral sites.

Ayton and his team were not competative with lame teams in the Bahamas or Buffalo int he tourney...not because of Ayton, but because of the guys around him who were not AZ good due to poor recruiting/evaluation or poor development or both. Thats the point...many players simultaneously developed into AZ good players on those Lute teams...

Offline ichi

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Re: Argument on Sean Miller's player development
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2019, 11:10:19 AM »

PEACE
I was trying to be reasonable and give facts and specific instances and cite provable, measurable things. That is why I took the time to give details of my argument.

Let me ask you one simple, straightforward question. I wont respond to your answer or take it any further...you can have the last word. In the interest of fostering some actual meaningful discussion and avoid groupthink generalities and platitudes.

You wrote:
 
"but oh yea, if we look at those positives from some certain angle they're all really negatives"

If you recruit as well as Duke or Kentucky or and even better than UNC or Kansas...and those programs go to multiple  final fours EACH in ten years and you go to zero...Is it, then,  'trolling' or 'baiting' or intellectually dishonest or is someone a 'hater' when they question why our recruiting rankings have been so high and literally the only other programs who even come close have all had multiple final fours and championships deep tournament runs - while we have even not a single final four?

I will give you credit for being good at logical fallacies, half-truths, innuendo, all of the tricks

So lets parse how you do it

the trolling, hater tag fits because you're not here to exchange ideas, you consistently argue the same points, ad nauseum, where you attempt to frame every issue in the worst light, repeatedly dodging or ignoring any reasonable response

you attempt to completely disparage any attempt to measure success by any other measure than FFs and Natties.  That's wrong, it takes a bunch of luck in addition to everything else to get to the championship game, rather than looking at the totality of the program's success - any if you look at the National college BB scene Arizona has been, and will continue to be, a premier program

when someone makes their case for Miller you go apeshit, paragraghs and paragraphs that try not only to overwrite the original post, but also to attack anyone foolish enough to think Miller is good.  Its endless, your bloviating derails threads and, because you're not adding anythnig new, just repeating your same arguments over and over, it sucks a lot of the air out of the other conversations

you're a troll because you attempt to overwhelm the board with your views, trying to shout down everyone.  You're not OK with just coming in here, saying your piece, engaging in some friendly banter, and maybe learning something.  You give the impression that you're part of a FUD campaign, people routinely comment on how obsessed you are, past the point of fandom or UofA alum concenr, you appear to be actively trying to damage CSM's rep.

You set up impossible conditions for success. For example, if we recruit a strong player who succeeds in the NBA its because he was a strong player, not anything to do with coming to AZ.  If he struggles that's on Miller.  According to you, kids don't develop here.  So you built a logical fallacy so Miller cannot win.  If the guy is good, its not due to his association with Miller, but if the kid fails, well that's the coach's fault.  You do this a lot, and if anyone engages with you ... endless repetition and an unwillingness on your part to be reasonable, I've seen you ignore every point in a post that you couldn't refute only to return to your focus on finding the most negative lens through which to view this coach and team.

We were a basket or two away from a couple of FFs, had we beat Wisconsin in either game this would be moot, and I fail to see how we can accurately assess Miller's performance based on a few missed shots, because that's all that stands between the current "no FFs" and the current situation.

Instead, let's look at all of the other measures of success - win%, conference titles, conf tourney titles, grad rates, attendance, home court record, guys in the NBA and other pro leagues, on the future.  Let's consider that Miller is a pro for navigating the program through adversity - PEDs, Book, Scumbach, Pitts, Smith - a lot of issues to deal with.  The difference is that I thank CSM for the way he has addressed each of those issues, while you seem to blame him.

Fine, I can accept that you think differently than I do, no biggie.  But when I come here to participate in the Wildcat community, maybe learn something, only to have every post quoted and parsed.  I don't mind straight talk and like physical exercise, some resistance is good for the mind as well, but I'm done replying to you, because there's no point in it.  Let's agree that you're disagreeable.

Offline eggdog

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Re: Argument on Sean Miller's player development
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2019, 06:40:41 PM »
"Odd how virtually every single guard that started for Lute over a 20 period was an NBA draft pick... that is what I mean by AZ good."

If you're going to constantly compare Lute to Miller you're going to be disappointed for a long time - the next Lute is not walking through the door any time soon if ever. Replacing a hall of fame coach is not easy for most schools, outside Kansas, North Carolina, Kentucky and maybe a few others. I can think of a bunch of schools who were great under one coach and when he left they fell into irrelevancy, something we were in danger of had we not pulled Miller from Xavier. And rather than try to keep bringing in new coaches trying to chase the success Lute had I'd rather stick with Miller and see if he can get us there.

As you pointed out Quinerly did not play well at Villanova. But does that mean Jay Wright can't coach? It happens all the time, at every school.

Offline 2012Cat

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Re: Argument on Sean Miller's player development
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2019, 08:33:25 PM »
 
And to say someone is not ďArizonaĒ good because they didnít make a final four is just plain wrong. That means everyone since the 2001 team wasnít Arizona good? So iggy, Frye, dwill, Ayton, etc werenít any good?

I think that is one dimension...not the only one and I think that applies not to guys who would be OND's now. Look at the Lute guys you named...those teams played and beat final four teams and national champions...becaue of the players around them.  They were competitive with anybody. We went to Kansas and beat them. To Michigan state and beat them. We played Florida and UConn and Duke and Kentucky and just about every top ten top twenty program you can name in tournaments or on neutral sites.

Ayton and his team were not competative with lame teams in the Bahamas or Buffalo int he tourney...not because of Ayton, but because of the guys around him who were not AZ good due to poor recruiting/evaluation or poor development or both. Thats the point...many players simultaneously developed into AZ good players on those Lute teams...

Frye and iggy have 0 final fours between them. In fact they have a couple first round exits as well. Keep reaching bub

Offline jumpinjohnny

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Re: Argument on Sean Miller's player development
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2019, 10:46:42 AM »


Odd how virtually every single guard that started for Lute over a 20 period was an NBA draft pick... that is what I mean by AZ good.


[/quote]

Othick? Muelbach? The Nutjob with the headband? Shakur? McMillen? = "Virtually every . . . "
Read em and weep

Online Liquidated

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Re: Argument on Sean Miller's player development
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2019, 10:09:25 AM »


Odd how virtually every single guard that started for Lute over a 20 period was an NBA draft pick... that is what I mean by AZ good.



Othick? Muelbach? The Nutjob with the headband? Shakur? McMillen? = "Virtually every . . . "
[/quote]

From 1988 (Kerr) to 2008 (Bayless) - Lute had 16 guards (as listed by the NBA) drafted. You listed 4 that weren't. McMillan, Muehlbach & Othick  were part of a program that featured big men, before Lute changes his ideas about basketball.

From 2009 to 2018 - Miller has had exactly 2 guards drafted, Nick Johnson and Kadeem Allen. Almost an exact reversal ... The vast majority of Miller's guards go un drafted, with only a few exceptions.   

https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/draft_finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=1983&year_max=2018&college_id=arizona&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&order_by=ws

 


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